Some Atheists Say Heaven {Eternity} Would Be Boring. Wrong. Interesting & Exciting

Joe,
Thanks for your comments.
Glad you found some interesting points in the thread.
Best.

JAG

``

 

An Taibhse,
First let me thank you very much for writing all that up.
That was "quite a read" and I know you put some time and
effort into it -- much appreciated. I read it all. You have
had quite a life, and a lot of interesting experiences.

I will make a few responses to some of the points you made.

The Earth being more-or-less "round" and spinning
would make the literal interpretation of Heaven being
"up" and "down" nonsensical. What is important is to
know there is a Heaven, and a God in Heaven that
loves us and wants us to believe in Him --- for our
long-term best interest --- "for God so loved the world.
that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes
in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life." John 3:16

Regarding Heaven being "up" -- God knows that Heaven
is not literally "up" but the choice of using 'up" instead of
"down" is because "up" is considered by humans to be
"much better" than "down." The Lord Jesus ""went along" with
the selection of "up."
"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your
Son may glorify you."__John 17:1
_________

You wrote a lengthy interesting post and I am going to respond
to some of your points in short posts rather than one long post.

That could illustrate my claim that "up" is "better" than "down."
Mt. Olympus would be considered, by Humanity-At-Large, to be
"better" than Hades the Place of the Dead.
If you think about it , , ,
Most everything that is "up" is a good thing that humans like.
The Sun.
Moon.
Blue sky.
Stars.
Birds.
Clouds.
Tree tops , ,
, , , with maybe storms being the only bad thing that humans see as being "up."
But humans see a lot of bad stuff being "down."
No need to list those, they are well known
_________

By the way, I do preach , , ,lol , , , but I do not attempt to force
my beliefs on anyone. Preaching is harmless if you do it the way
I do --- which is to merely present spiritual ideas for your
consideration. I do not "speak for God."

Humans are spiritual beings. God has "written Himself"
on the hearts and minds of human beings and they
will always find some way to express that "imprinting."

To escape it requires great intellectual effort and the
means of escape is a strong heavy emphasis on
Intellectualism, Rationalism, Logic, Empiricism, and
Science -- and usually some degree of ridicule of
Faith as being nonsensical.

Your indigenous groups in Mid and South America
were responding to God's imprinting of Himself on
the human person -- they were responding at the
primitive level of response.

It is difficult to "get away from God" -- you have to
work very hard to get it done. 21st century atheism
puts forth a huge effort to get rid of the Biblical
God-That-Does-Not-Exist , ,, lol , , , they publish,
they post videos, they post in threads, they debate
in front of live University audiences eg. William
Lane Craig vs. Bart Ehrman and WLC vs. many
other atheists too.

I am going to send this on to you, and then make some
more responses to your other very interesting writings.

Best.

JAG

 

A vert helpful communication tool, that sarcasm.
Some examples , ,

1. Now we know why some animals eat their own children.
2. This is an excellent time for you to become a missing person.
3. I’m busy now. Can I ignore you some other time?
4. When I look into your eyes, I see straight through to the back of your head

, , lol , ,
`
{off the web}

Regarding the Abrahamic Faiths:

Theism worldwide is very strong and very healthy.

2.8 billion Muslims plus 2.9 billion Christians by 2050.

That comes out to 5.7 billion Theists by 2050? And that's not counting the Jews.

5.7 billion Theists is going to be a lot of Theists by 2050

Projected growth of Christianity by 2050
Some of the projections are as follows:
[96]

1. Over the 2010-2050 period, Christians will remain the largest religious group with 30.7% of the world’s population. However, Islam will grow faster and become 29.7% of the world’s population. Therefore, by 2050 there will be 2.8 billion Muslims compared to 2.9 billion Christians.
2. “In the United States, Christians will decline from more than three-quarters of the population in 2010 to two-thirds in 2050.”
3. “Four out of every 10 Christians in the world will live in sub-Saharan Africa.”

In the section By Country, here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...wth#By_country


_____________


Christendom, according to the linked article, will decline in the United States by 2050 . . .
However . . .
Christendom is growing in the Global South.

Christianity is growing in Africa.

Christendom is growing in China. There is a huge "underground" Christianity in China. House Church.

Christianity is huge in South Korea --and growing.

________

I appreciate that attitude. That makes the world "run better" and
that attitude is unfortunately missing from much "discussion"
on the Internet , , in that vein , ,
Did you ever read my OP here at PF titled:
"There Is A Lot Of Love In Threads On The Internet, Isn't There?
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...in-threads-on-the-internet-isnt-there.573109/
. . lol . .
It is short and to the point. You will smile.

Best.

JAG

More coming , , ,

PS
Only respond to points that you find interesting.
I do not expect you to respond to all that I write.


``

``

 

Yeah, its "off the charts" as an item of amazement.
"Male
Female
Agender
Cisgender
Genderqueer
Intersex
Gender Non-conforming
Transgender
Two-spirited gender {Native Americans}
Genderfluid" ___ off the web
And that's not even getting started good , , ,
The web says there could be 71 different genders.
So far as I can tell from reading about gender on the web, there
is nothing to prevent a 21st century person from sexually identifying
him/her/it-self as a Rocking Chair or an Automobile or an F-14 Tomcat.
You are whatever you say you are.
Or think you are.
On any given day
And that can change any moment.
You can self-identify as a male on Monday.
And as a female on Tuesday.
Then back to male on Wednesday.
What's to stop a person from doing that? Nothing.

Noted.
I read all of that.

Yeah, I just was reading about that. There is a wiki page on the
Two-spirited gender of Native Americans.

You probably believe in Evolution.
Evolution did not advance the Native Americans to the
same heights as the Europeans. Why do you think that
was the case? {If you have an opinion on that?}

My view is No, you are conscious after death.
You have a body and a soul-spirit.
Soul-spirit is the same thing.
You have a brain.
Your brain is nothing but a tool or vehicle used by your soul-spirit.
You are not your brain. This is false: YOU=YOUR BRAIN.

Forever being you -- plus ever learning and growing
for all Eternity , , if you go with John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

Its not unreasonable to believe that God could have spoken His
word to humans through Christ's Apostles. Christianity teaches that
God became flesh "In the beginning was the word and the word was
with God and the word was God" John 1:1-2
Christianity is a Faith.
God had to find some way to make Himself known to humans.
The Person and Work of His Son the Lord Christ is the way
that this God that created the Universe chose to make Himself
known to Humanity. It'd be worth your time to do serious study
of it -- or a serious re-study of it.

Paine is the Enemy of the human soul.
We are all getting older and older.
Paine and Voltaire will not "be there for us" when we have to face
Death all alone. At that time we will both need a Friend as in
"What A Friend We Have In Jesus"-- Friend.

Christian Apologists have written books that solved many of the
alleged logical inconsistences in the Bible. More are on the way.
Here is one right here from Apologetics Press. Did Jesus Go To Egypt?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=6&article=4132

I have been studying the Bible for decades and decades and here
below is how I believe conversion to Faith in the Lord Jesus usually
takes place .Its usually a slow process. It often takes several years.

It usually occurs in increments stretched out over a long period of time.
There can be "baby steps" at first and then you "move on up" to more
grown-up steps. Step 1 is you have to cultivate the desire to believe.

You don't have to get up one morning and say, "I will start believing in
God today." Instead you say, "I will today ask God to cultivate within
my heart the desire to believe in Him as my Savior." Step 2 is you
start reading the New Testament with the "goal in mind" of having your
faith "cultivated" by the Holy Spirit --- who is the One that is going to
cultivate your faith, if it ever does get cultivated.

Christianity is a supernatural Faith, and not based primarily upon
Empiricism and Intellectualism {but Christianity is not Fideism either}
The power of Christianity is the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit
that regenerates the spiritually dead human soul and makes it come
alive. Jesus called it being "born again." in John 3:3

Read the New Testament devotionally, and not critically. A good place to
start is John's gospel. Then move go on to the other gospels. Look for
passages on the subject of salvation and on subjects that are of special
devotional interest to you. Ask God to help you. Step one is to ask God
to help you come to faith in Christ as your Savior. If you ask Him, He will
do that. But you have to take the First Step. The path to God is through
the Heart, and not through the Intellect. The Intellect will take you right
back to where you are now. This is why you need to read, say, John's
gospel devotionally and not critically. Read it from the heart. Read it with
the heart.

For example, here is a passage in John's gospel {chapter 11} that can be read
devotionally.

"On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four
days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews
had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother.

When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary
stayed at home.

“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me
will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.
Do you believe this?”
“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is
to come into the world."__John chapter 11
________

Then one more point. "That still small voice" is the path to having the Holy Spirit cultivate
your faith in the Lord Jesus as your Savior. What does "that still small voice" mean? It means
that the Holy Spirit is not loud and will not raise His voice to you. He will wait for you to
speak your words asking Him to help you believe and asking Him to cultivate your faith
in the Lord Jesus as your Savior. If you do that, you will find that He will help you take Step 1,
then later He will help you take Step 2, and if you keep asking, He will help you come to Faith
in the Lord Jesus. Step 1 is you have to ask Him to help you cultivate the desire to believe.

______

My motive in writing that was to help folks see the light based upon what I believe is the usual
path to salvation. It was from "one human being to another" and I hope you choose to read it like that.
After all, as a Christian I have an obligation to tell you about the Lord Jesus.


. "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake He
became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich."__ 2Corinthians 8:9

Best.

JAG


```

 

A. You're simply quoting someone's opinion.
B Henry doesn't have a god. Henry looks after himself to stay alive He puts others first and helps them all he can. Even, sometimes, to the extent of giving his life for them. Your argument is as old as the hills and doesn't stand water. You're again twisting words to suit yourself. An atheist has no god.

 

Catholic Purgatory is simply an adaptation of the Jewish belief of spending time after death considering ones life.

So we've got to go to work in factories until the bell sounds for the end of the shift? Roads and highways to maintain. Automobiles that never go wrong? And where does the food come from. Hard labour
And what happens when all of space is explored in millions of years time and you still have immeasureable time left, and immeasurable time left and immeasurable time left. ........Aren't you getting a bit carried away from Rev. 22. Oh. Of course, this is all by faith..................................................................

 

So you are proselytising.

 

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain
where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they
worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to
them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and
of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to
obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
with you always, to the very end of the age."
___Matthew chapter 28

Trevor, let me encourage you to return to the Christian Faith.
Consider this Bible verse:

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though
he was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you
through his poverty might become rich."__ 2 Corinthians 8:9

Best.

JAG

 

100% irrelevant.
Misdirection.
I have said nothing about Catholic Purgatory and that has nothing
to do with my OP.

You do not know what Eternity will actually be like.
You do not know that it will be "Space" , , "Time" like we know now.
For that matter you do not know that creating will not be an eternal
process that never ends. If it is a good thing to create one human being
that loves and enjoys living life, then it is a better thing to create 2 human
beings that loves and enjoys life --- then a better thing to create 4 ---
then a better thing to create 8 , , then a better thing to create 16. etc etc

The Final number of The People Of God may not exist. It could be
infinite.

JAG

``

 

False.

False.
Atheism is a religion.
Atheism has a God.
Henry is an atheist.
Henry has a God.
Henry's God is named Henry.
Henry is his own Supreme Being.
Henry is his own God.
There is nothing higher in Henry's world than Henry.
So Atheism, for all practical purposes, is a religion.

False.
Atheists DO believe there is a God.
Romans 1:18-20
{A} The Bible says that people know that God exists
because He has revealed Himself to them, to the
extent that people know there is a God.
Romans 1:18-20
{B} The Bible says that men "suppress the truth."{Romans 1:18}
Romans 1:18-20 presents the germ principle of the
Teleological Argument for the existence of
God -- Intelligent Design.
Men KNOW there is a God -- they suppress this
knowledge and drown it out through pseudo-intellectualism.

JAG

 

I really enjoyed your post. When we look at all our Father in Heaven with his Son Jesus Christ have organized and formed in our universe, the potential for our own opportunities is mind-boggling. We are not only made in His image, we are also god's in embryo as well. John 10:34, "Jesus answered them saying, is it not written in your law (Psalms 82:6), I said Ye are gods?" Jesus also said we would "inherit" his kingdom "glory." That means we will also be able in my opinion to be able to organized and create our own universes as well. Why not? How else do we become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect? We are not replacing our Father in Heaven. We are following our Father in Heaven to be perfect as he is and enjoy the creative abilities he has. Many of those things you listed, but even more.

 

@Swensson {because I wanted you to see this.}

Cougarbear,
Thank you.
I agree with all that.
Super great comment.
I see no reason why we will not be able to
accomplish what you suggested that I
bolded black up there.
____

My view is that the God of the Bible is the
God Of The Hubble Deep Field and what He
has in store for His People will be totally
"off the charts" with regard to the size and
scope of Heaven and Eternity.

I do not know that Creation will not be Eternal,
that there will NEVER come a time when
Universes will cease to be created. True,
i am speculating and do NOT know that
will be the case. My Logic is this: If it is
a good thing to create one Universe packed
with happy joyous people --- then it is a better
thing to create 2 Universes packed with happy
joyous people --- then a better thing to create 3
, , , then a better thing to create 4 , , etc etc
to Infinity. Again, true I am speculating ---but
the size of God's Plan is totally "off the charts."
As one writer correctly said, "No matter how BIG
you think God is, your God is to small."

Then this , ,
God never does anything on a small dinky
scale. Just look at the Hubble Deep Field
and then look at the size of the known
Universe -- and just imagine how big the
size of the unknown Universe could be.

God was the Original Physicist.
The Original Mathematician.
The Original Scientist.
The Original Artist.
The Original Inventor.
etc etc

In Heaven/Eternity we will have enhanced intellects
and be able to do astounding feats and deeds. God
created Andromeda to be inhabited and used by His
People -- is my view. We will literally "go to the stars."

____

Hope you stick around and post often.

Best.

JAG


``

 

I can see Eternity forever in that God is not defined and confined by time. He used things like a day of God is like 1,000 years of mans to explain God's time is not Man's time and that a day for God is isn't really a day either for him. While I don't think the universe is old, I'm not sure we have to believe that each day was exactly 1,000 years either. One day could have been 100 years and another 10,000 years. The sun didn't exist until the 4th day anyways. I do believe in our time, the earth isn't 4 billion years old. Maybe 50,000 years old. Who knows and it really isn't important in my belief.

 

Some Atheists Say Heaven {Eternity} Would Be Boring. Wrong. Interesting & Exciting

Most atheists I know, including me, don't believe in heaven or eternity and therefore would not describe it.

Finding out eternity would be like NYC is what made me an atheist.

 

This is exactly correct. But not for the reason you think.

You got that backwards.

 

Purgatory - I was answering someone else's post.

And you don't know what your eternity will be like. It's all in your imagination. The Bible does not tell you this. This is Jehovahs Witness teaching. Come to think of it, they reject many of the facts I have quoted and I have questioned them regularly. The ordinary follower has no idea of what the Bible says. The answer I usually get is 'I will have to ask someone'. They are indoctrinated to the extent they dare not disbelieve. You have no authority for the list of things you quote - neither do the Jehovahs witnesses.

 

Thanks for the comment.
Interesting.
JAG

``

 

Finally.

I have been waiting for months for someone to say something like that.

I had hoped it would be in reference to my comments, but no matter.

I am an atheist, of sorts, and I am a minor god of information.

Clearly, this appears contradictory. It's not but it does need explanation. If you take Nietzsche to it's logical conclusion, he didn't just kill god, he puts it in reach of everyone. That's his Superman. (Excuse me, but I need to preempt stupidity, the nasty stuff was rewriting his sister did after his death).

"We are as gods, we might as well get good at it." Stewart Brand

If you brought someone here from a few thousand years ago, he would see us walking in the heavens, and holding what he would see as the power of life and death. So you're a god, deal with it.

It sucks being a god, btw, all the responsibility and none of the power.

No one sane thinks they are Supreme.

One of my favorite sayings is that 'It's not about you or me'.

Some religious types get rid of their cognitive dissonance by denigrating what disagrees. That's a very, very old habit of religious types.

So is atheism a religion?

"So pragmatists see the Platonic tradition as having outlived its usefulness. This does not mean that they have a new, non-Platonic set of answers to Platonic questions to offer, but rather that they do not think we should ask those questions any more. When they suggest that we not ask questions about the nature of Truth and Goodness, they do not invoke a theory about the nature of reality or knowledge or man which says that “there is no such thing” as Truth or Goodness. Nor do they have a “relativistic” or “subjectivist” theory of Truth or Goodness. They would simply like to change the subject. They are in a position analogous to that of secularists who urge that research concerning the Nature, or the Will, of God does not get us anywhere. Such secularists are not saying that God does not exist, exactly; they feel unclear about what it would mean to affirm His existence, and thus about the point of denying it. Nor do they have some special, funny, heretical view about God. They just doubt that the vocabulary of theology is one we ought to be using."

https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/us/rorty.htm

 

For An Taibhse

Suppose I suggest that these 'spirits' they worship were actual handed down memories of ancient beings far more advanced than they were/are. If you take the history of South America and put it against the Olmecs (who had worked out the Bar-and-dot system of the CaLENDRICAL NOTATION) and Incas in Central America they are remarkably alike. Virocochas and Quetzecoatl described the same way and taught much the same. Both are banished by an enemy to same way. The ability to build with accuracy we would have trouble following today. Astronomical knowledge beyond them. The stories of men who could lift massive stones with a word. Things we would have trouble lifting today. Then compare that with Egypt and a similar situation, stories etc. The India and Japan. These stories around the world when there was not supposed to be contact between nations. In the Americas are found large statues and busts of peoples with arabic, caucasian and NEGROID features. Yet Africans are not supposed to have been in the AMERICAS until around Columbus time. These statues are at least 3000 years old. The accuracy of calculations in buildings, astronomy etc are far beyond the capability of ancient people. We manage with technology. They didn't have technology in the time of the Inca's etc. yet some of their calculations were virtually the same as ours. In some cases .0002% out. There are drawings/carvings throughout the world of seeming flying machines and people flying them. Given that even Governments today have finally admitted they can't explain some UFO phenomenon, who knows. If these things were located in one place I would have some doubt, but they are throughout the world. Even the Aborigines of Australia have similar stories.

 

It doesnt matter if we disagree, because every religion fits my definition, where as literally every belief someone can have is a religion by your definition.

If Every belief is a religion, then the word religion is meaningless.

 

Lets also be clear about something. Theism isn't a religion either. Its a belief. A belief is not a religion. There are plenty of non religious theists out there.

 

I never said that every belief is a religion --- that is what you said.

Agreed it does not matter if we disagree.

I do not know if you are an atheist or not --- but if you are
then we are not going to agree on the color of an orange.
So what difference will it make if you and I use the word
"religion" in contradictory ways? No difference at all.
We will most likely both end up proclaiming that the
other is illogical. That's harmless enough.

___________

Regarding words , , ,

People can and do give words the connotations they want to
give them, The definitions of words change constantly. This is
why dictionary publishing companies up-date their dictionaries
regularly.

If we can get enough people using the phrase "the religion of
atheism" then the dictionaries will start listing that idea as 1
definition.

If you google "atheism as religion' you will pull up a lot of listings
already.--- so a significant number of people are already starting
to speak about the "religion of atheism." I will do my small part to
"help it along."

Wikipedia has a page titled Christian Atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

Here is a BBC News article titled , , ,
"What Happens At An Atheist Church."
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945

Here is another news article from The Economist titled , ,
"The Elusive Phenomenon Of Churches Without God."
https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2018/05/16/the-elusive-phenomenon-of-churches-without-god

Those 3 up there are mainstream reputable sources.

_________

Here is an article that argues that atheism is a religion.

"Atheism is a religious worldview because it claims to know
something fundamental about reality that hasn’t been—or
can’t be—proven. Like theists, atheists operate out of a
foundational faith or belief that shapes their perceiving,
thinking, and living in the world."
https://www.thebanner.org/columns/2019/01/is-atheism-a-religion

___________

Moreover , , ,
My view is there is no such thing as an atheist.
Romans 1 says that God has revealed Himself to humanity.
That all men know there is a God.
They know this from looking at what God has created.
So that they are without excuse.
Romans 1 also says that men "suppress the truth" that they
possess about God.
My view is they suppress this truth through pseudo-intellectualism
and a way-to-heavy emphasis on Rationalism, Empiricism, and
their personal understand of Science.

_________

Back to atheism , , ,

Regarding atheism being a religion, I hold that it is one, and
I will hold that position until the end of my days and will
continue to think, write, and post that atheism is a religion.

My view is that in order to have a religion all you need
is to have a god -- a Supreme Being.
Atheism has both.
Robert is an atheist.
Robert has a god.
Robert's god is named Robert.
Robert is his own Supreme Being.
Why? , , , Because , , ,
There is nothing higher in Robert's world than Robert.
So Atheism, for all practical purposes, is a religion.


Best.

JAG

 

theist - "a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods,
specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe."

Theism - "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in
one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a
personal relation to his creatures"

Theism - "Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of a Supreme Being or deities.[1][2] "___Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
_________

Regarding "theism" and "theist" , , , I make the same point as I did about the
word "religion" and the word "atheist", namely we can use them --- defining them
with contradictory definitions and it will be okay with me. I have no problem
whatsoever with you and I using words with contradictory definitions. You can
make your points and I can make my points and we can both be happy doing
that.

Best.

JAG

 

Thank you for your interesting comments.
Please see my two posts up there to Capn Awesome -- especially
the lengthy post.

Best.

JAG




``

 

So what you are saying is that heaven has factories? Are these factories made out of metal or heaven-clouds? Are they producing angel harps? Do you have any references in the bible that back up your travel guide to heaven?