Some talking should be done between Europe and Russia concerning Ukraine situation

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Darketernal, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    A consensus needs to be reached so that both Russia and Europe can benefit from Ukraine.

    I feel rather sad, a long time ago i wrote a thread about whether Russia would like to join the European Union, this got shot down pretty much under the context that Europe would only be interested in Russia's vast energy sources.

    The pressure of the expansion of the European Union is knocking on Russia's border, however i hope to make the Russians come to understand that the cold war is no more, and that the Europeans other then trying to be a partner of Russia have no harm or i'll meant intentions, but this is hard to convince because of what happened in the past, i was hoping to leave the past the past, and move on hand in hand with Russia into the future. Even if it was just for the sake of Russia being able to unite again with the countries it once lost, for economic benefitial reasons, and last but not least, to try to prevent a pulling contest that is going on now between Europe and Russia seemingly in the Ukraine.

    Instead of letting Ukraine becoming the new middle East of Europe, i hope to work in a consensus together with the Russians to from a joint Europe.
     
  2. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    Nice words.. but only words...

    Russia neither can nor should forget the past (or present).. the truth is that the Westerners have always invaded Russia ... attacked by Swedes, Poles, French, german etc.
    if you have traveled by the world, you know the Apartheid live Russian population in Latvia, in E.U. (2014).. the west intelligence services have help and probably planned the coup d´etat given by ukrainan ultranationalist..The problem is that almost 25% population in Ukrainja is Russian and almost 50% area is "Russia".

    Regards
     
  3. big daryle

    big daryle New Member

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    The Ukraine should be part of Russia anyway. if Russia invades and takes it back, they are only taking what is theirs.
     
  4. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    Its true what you say, but what about the future, fight until we die and lose everything we hold dear? only to come to a realisation its more profitable to work together. We are all human beings, Europe is not looking towards fighting, or annexing the world. The primary goal of Europe is to make countries work together to benefit their own economies. Therefore again i say, consider working together rather then demolishing each other.
     
  5. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    The universe is not a private posession but given out to all, besides non of it has been created by humans to begin with, the stars, the moon, the earth and galaxies, we didn't create a single atom on this earth, i doubt we should lay claim on it so easily. Besides i thought communism was about sharing. :p
     
  6. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

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    Actions speak louder that rethoric. We have got, let me see, overtrowing goverments around Russia's borders and establishing anti-Russian puppet regimes, smear campain in the media, expansion of EU and NATO (read advance towards our borders). The truth is...that Cold war have never ended.
    Some of them havn't, they were just convinced that their actions are for the sake of greater good, while, in fact, it it is the other way around, the others are trying to harm, like Poland, for one.
    It is not like we want them.
    Ukraine will always be in that condition until it gets splitted in two halfs. Full stop.
     
  7. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    KGB, i think that if the people in the Crim really want to become part of Russia, they should just let the people there vote about it. I as a European would rather see the Russians there become part of Russia again then living in misery in the Ukraine. :thumbsup:
     
  8. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    I think the truth is more that people are just stuck in the past in Russia, they still live with the idea that the West has no other intention then to invade Russia, steal its resources etc etc. But look, it's Russia's own economic downfall that chased people to the West and ended the cold war, Russia was economically depleted due to it's excessive war budget spending, and communism not working as a valid economic system. Countries are still fleeing from Russia and trying to join Europe for its economic benefits, and NOT to increase the threat towards Russia. Ukraine is just the latest country wanting to flee (at least approximately 50%) economic poverty and join the European union. So yes, the cold war has ended, any cold war still going on is only in the minds of people who haven't moved on and forward towards modernization in life.


    I think at least in Western Europe , rather then Eastern Europe the welcoming of Russia to the European union would be welcomed, But in that scenario the Eastern side would come along with that decision, and a cooperation of Europe as a whole would be established. Also you need to have room for forgiveness in your heart in order to move on to the future, if you can't say 'sand over it' and bury the war axe, then the inner discontent will go on forever, and this would not be in the benefit for any country in Europe.

    I guess this is true, Russians care about the Russian interests. I don't think the Eastern countries would ever been under the Russian government if it weren't for WW2.

    I hear you guys often say "Actions speak louder than rethoric"

    However, the father of any action is a thought. And intelligence is cooperation in this case. But this cannot be forced off, we'll have to talk to the Russians and hopefully they will also be willing to talk back to the European leaders to work towards a cooperative future without damaging each others interests.
     
  9. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The question is not the territory or resources. The main problem is that fascism is rising its head again...

    There should be a political power in Europe which should pay more attention to this side of the conflict. Because the figure of Neville Chamberlain's kind has no future for Europe and for the world..., except for some jokes maybe. But who can that be. Unfortunately I don't see such politicians on a contemporary political stage. It looks that Europe will once again surrender to facism and a lot of russian blood will be spent to clean the Europe and be blamed for flooding Europe with the blood...

    And yes. I hope that my dear patriots from Russia will not try to repeat our propaganda here. Propaganda is a war. And the war is something that happens from both sides.

    I myself consider these facts as the basis:
    1) There has never been an aim to make a Ukraine as a part of EU. So the revolution there has no chance to get to its aims, which were told from Maidan stage.
    2) There is no 'good' solution of this crisis for Russia. Whatever will be done Russia will be guilty. Even if our military forces physically kill every citizen of the Ukraine, who doesn't want to live under facist rule even then it will be guilty for everything that "free" western press will be given a command to blame it.
    3) EU buearcrats and american hawks will not tolerate another flop, so they will also go to the end.

    So I am pretty sure that soon some of us might meet at the battlefield or suffer because of an... let's tell the sad truth... inevitable war.
     
  10. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    When was there any reasonable alternative to what you have just said? Was a cold war "profitable" for West and USSR? Were crusades any profitable for muslims and christians? The history has never been reasonable and kind to the people. It's only about being ready to protect what you think is right. Only this matters. Russians are ready to die fighting against facists. And whatever happens around will take into account this given fact.
     
  11. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    Who are the fascists you're referring to? Why are you so sure there's going to be an inevitable war?

    Up until now Putin has been the instigator and creator of the crisis by invading a sovereign nation. A good - as in moral - solution for Russia would be to pull out its troops.
     
  12. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

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    It is not even about becoming a part of Russia. It is about show of force to neo-nazis in Kiev.

    We have an history of West trying to submit, invading us or trying to exterminate us for 800 years. Nineteens proved that perfectly. So I am not buying good-and-fluffy-West-now-wants-to-be-friends fairy tale.
    Oh, the irony, when they get to EU dreamland their population want to get out. Too bad "elected leaders" don't really care about biomass opinion.
    NATO
    [​IMG]
    EU
    [​IMG]

    Yeah, sure. The military block, which was created to oppose USSR and somehow wasn't disbanded after 25 years of it's collapse has nothing to do with the EU. No-thing. The maps clearly shows that, don't they?
    Oh, so it is only PART of the country, which wants to flee...something, because they are not in any form of allience with Russia.
    Denial, denial everywhere.


    Russia is an economy the size of Germany, nearly with twice the population and 2-nd/3-rd strongest army in the world. We both understand who is going to dominate in EU then and that is the reason we will never be allowed to join, even if we wanted to.


    We always are open to dialoge.

    Oh, was he really? Was there any invasion at all? We are allowed to host 25 000 of troops in Crimea, so far only 16 000 is in place.
     
  13. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    I'm not buying this "all non Janukowitsch Ukrainians are fascists" nonsense. There're right-wing extremists and nationalists at work, but it's obvious to see where this argument comes from. By claiming "they" are all fascists, all actions carried out by the other side are pure self defence, and everybody has the right to defend themselves, right?
    Putin has broken international laws and sent his troops into a sovereign state, simple as that. Sure many nations have done so in the past, but this doesn't justify his actions in any way.
    And drawing comparisons between the Swedish or French invasions several hundred years ago and the situation now is pretty laughable in my book.
     
  14. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    Yes, I am aware that the Russian army/navy is allowed to have troops there. The issue is that Russian soldiers occupied airports and military bases in Crimea which belonged to the Ukrainian state and also blocked several roads.


    Another thing. Every Russian poster here goes on about the neo-nazi insurgency in Kiev and how they got a hold of the government and now they are trying to cause problems for the Russian minority in Ukraine. Wasn't it the same parliament which impeached Yanukoviych? What proof is there that the Russian minority in Crimea was bullied by the neo-nazis? All I saw was Russian troops which occupied several facilities in Crimea, that's it.
     
  15. Alien Traveler

    Alien Traveler New Member

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    Wow! How many times it should be repeated?
    Idiots from new Ukrainian government

    1. Prohibited Russian language.
    2. Party, presented Russian speakers was outlawed (and it was the biggest Ukrainian party)

    If needed I can repeat it again, be my guest.
     
  16. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    I agree that the EU is nothing but another power structure which comes with a lot of downsides especially for East European countries which cannot compete economically in the same market - I assume that was the whole idea with integrating Eastern Europe into the EU, get some new markets without any competition. BUT, I would choose any day the EU over Russia. At least I don't get thrown in jail if I say something bad about the government. In my view Russia has always been like a dungeon for its own people - sadly - and even though after the USSR breakup things got a little better in that respect, it seems that Putin is going down that path again. I don't mind if that sort of system stays in Russia and you guys are happy with it but I do mind when Putin tries to spread it to other regions - especially if that region is pretty close to my own country.
     
  17. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    Ok , the ban seems like a really stupid idea. Nevertheless, the response to that was an armed invasion by Russia? That seems even stupider.
     
  18. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    Our country had been doubling its GDP every 2 years from 2000 to 2008 when the crisis hit. Few countries in the world can do that, even developing/ democratic ones. Give it time.

    If you start with the premise that 'we can't compete' then indeed we never will. But we are the 7th most populous country in the EU and one of the largest too.
     
  19. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    My opinion is that Ukraine should and will be split.
     
  20. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    http://glavnoe.ua/news/n160162
    This happened in the Ukraine on the 2nd of January. Those who killed police officers are copying Hitler nazists and bear the portraits of those who actually served Hitler and killed lits of poles, byelorussians and ukrainians. With the help of the west THIS people came into power. Illegally. Now the ukraine is protesting against this facists. The main role in the uprising which unites a dozen of cities and towns are russians who have always lived in that territory. What kind of proof will possible change your opinion? Or let's say is there anything that can persuade you that your country again invaded a sovereign state the way it does for decades?
    The scheme of color revolution is the same. Firstly there is a try to bribe the ruling elite of the country of interest. If they collaborate with the US then they can be as much of dictators as Saudi Arabia (btw gays unlike Russia are just killed there. By law) But the press will not say anything against allies. If the ruling class prefers to work in favour of themselves or even their own people than the department of states starts to fund the traitors. These traitors can be found in the government, press, military, police etc. Then there is a demonstration show like Maidan or Takhrir. Thousands of people are screaming shallow demands, which are sometimes true (every country has problems, even US). Then the NATO allies with the help of US start to push those who haven't agreed to surrender. One country is forbidden to use police (Ukraine), the other country is forbidden to use their military (Libya), these demands are followed blackmailing and threats together with the hired mercenaries activiity. The western press shows only the things they are told to show. And finally this or another way the ambitious leaders are thrown of the power and the power is taken by anyone who is cooperative with the US... If by any chance the system fails like it did in Venezuella, China, Russia and partly Syria then these regimes are put under constant attacks in media as 'bad'. That's the whole scheme. What exactly needs to be proved?
     
  21. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    THere is NO invasion by Russia. Russia is ready to use its military. Any time. Because the situation is really crucial. But so far the people uprising are the citizens of Ukraine! What made you thinking that Russia invaded Ukraine? Have you seen any proofs?

    Again. Once Putin had to use military against Georgia he did it without hiding. He split Georgia the way he found needed and that was it. If there is a decision to use Russian army then there will not be any nerves. Rusians would stop near Dnipro 8 hours after they receive a command.
     
  22. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    One thing. Russian majority in Crimea!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine#Demographics

    This mistake kinda shows that something in your media doesn't look right, yes? They forgot that in Sevastopol the number of russians is more than 70%, right? Do you really think that the region which was for centuries used by military and where every second russian either was or is in the russian army would not react to neo-nazist's who illegally seized the power and who hasn't ever concealed the fact that towards russians they will use only terror?

    I understand that you are a patriot and I don't ask you to think of your nation and country as you want (for some reason) make me to think amout mine. I respect americans, but I find them extremely vulnerable to their propaganda which is just silly.
     
  23. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Noone told such a silly thing. Maidan consists of different people who are held just for a good TV reports. There are russians at Maidan as well. And I understand when people are showing to their state that something goes wrong. But the problem is that people who seized power are not the leaders of the whole Maidan.

    Here neo-nazists are telling Klichko to f///k off and he does so.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGiW_YZ9os

    Here the same happens with the surrent PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JldbpJIcfyk

    Yanukovich fled because of the armed neo-nazists, who are still there and who are true leaders of the Kiev 'revolution'. But again. Are you ready to believe in something that is contradicting you media? I will give you any proof of my words if you formulate what would consider.
     
  24. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Just imagine that your region is under a threat of official power. Someone in Washington has seized power and issued a law that English should not be spoken in your region. Only let's say mexican. Now your region consists of majority of yankees who are armed and love their country. Would you consider military bases and airports as a threat provided that you know that they BY LAW need to fulfil the orders of OFFICIAL POWER? IMHO crimean russians did absolutely right. They blocked the potential threats without spilling the blood of those who has to serve in the army (and can be by law shot if they don't obey the orders). Does it make sense? Believe it does.

    And now tell what is the f///ng sense for Putin to block military bases and airports? Has anyone started a war like that? Did japanese blocked Pearl Harbour waiting for a strike back or they did smth completely different? Did russian army in Georgia block any of georgian military bases or they prefered to strike at all the possible military forces that could counter-attack russian forces?
     
  25. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that you misread my post.
    I'm not surprised by that.
    Cheers.
     

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