Some talking should be done between Europe and Russia concerning Ukraine situation

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Darketernal, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    If Putin is obviously not counting all the ukrainians as facists then it was not me misreading... :)

    Putin is ready to help not only the russians but also ukrainians. At the moment mostly russians (some) are protesting against facists. At the moment only russians, communists and jews are under threat in Kiev and the Ukraine which is obedient to facists. But Putin knows that and the 'crap' that even you don't want 'to buy' is not his or ours. This crap everges from a mental activity which sees that your own media is a propaganda media and you try to remain good at least in your own eyes. That is where the crap comes from? :)

    Small wonder. If there is someone near who stinks more than you then you appear to be a little bit cleaner. So the idea to put your own crap to someone else doesn't look new. At all.
     
  2. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

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    Russian troops are "occupying" only those bases, which are loyal to local Crimean government.



    1)A parlament, which adopts decisions under the pressure of violent mob outdoors can not be considered legitimate.
    2)Did you expect us to wait for black smoke over concentration camps or smth? When we are saying, that central goverment was occupied by neo-nazis we are not throwing power-words or proving Godvin law. THEY ARE NEO-NAZIS!

    It is always better to prevent disease than to heal it.


    Nobody offered you joining Russia in the first place.
    You have too much propaganda BS in your brain and I am not going to waste my time arguing.
     
  3. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You are wasting your time trying to argue and you have been doing so for a long time.
    Rest assured, you will be back to argue some more (and probably waste your time).
    Funny that others who are of a different opinion, of course, don't know (*)(*)(*)(*), are brainwashed, are manipulated, and only some self proclaimed chosen ones know the "real truth".
    Yeah, right.
     
  4. Alien Traveler

    Alien Traveler New Member

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    Only for you, my friend.
     
  5. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  6. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Nothing more to add? I thought so. Very obvious to see.
    Little hint for you: you don't have to read anyone's comments, if you don't want to.
    But some people are happy posting funny pics; so be my guest. :wink:
     
  7. north korean

    north korean New Member

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    Sounds like you don't know that, during the past two decades, the repeated orange revolutions among former USSR member nations surrounding Russia were carefully plotted and directly funded by the Western (spec. U.S) government agencies and their affiliated organizations, which have been one of your country's most important foreign policy toward Eastern Europe since Clinton era.
    Right after the collapse of the former Soviet Union, Russian Federation was the most pro-Western and pro-American one among all former USSR members and even tried to join NATO. But later the Chechnya war, Bosnia war, Kosovo war, Georgia war, and repeated orange revolutions in its bordering nations, and the U.S. media's daily demonization of Russia and its leader Putin, etc. awakened Russian people.
     
  8. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    Where else would fully equipped soldiers (even with bazookas and lay on the ground machine guns) and personnel carriers be from? If you're trying to tell me that they are local separatist pro-russian militia I will take it as a joke.
    Also it seems that some of them identified themselves to some reporters and to the Ukrainian soldiers (when asked who are they when they made their demands on the ukrainian military bases) as being from Russia.
     
  9. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    It makes perfect sense - the idea I think is to create :
    1. as much pressure and intimidation on the Ukrainians in order to deter them from further protests and maybe even be able to influence its politics enough to have another Putin-man in charge.
    2. set an example at home (as in Russia) of what happens when people start to protest and give their grievances. I don't think Putin wants to deal with this at home.

    This is especially important to Russia since the navy bases they have in Crimea can be used to further control the Black Sea.

    IMHO, this is not about protecting Russian ethnics in Crimea its about losing control of Ukraine which would be a big loss for Putin.
     
  10. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    1. At the moment people in the streets are allies of Russia and enemies of the current facist power. So that is why it doesn't make sense for Russia to keep the troops in Crimea for such a long time without any real action. The pressure on the Ukraine in your opinion would only work if russian troops really occupoed all the Ukraine or at least Kiev. If Maidan was emptied and there were if not rivers but some streams of blood. This task is pretty much possible to be made, but for some reason there is only campaign in western press that 'russian invasion' in Crimea is so dangerous that they have even blocked (!) ukrainian military bases.

    So if you think that this suppostion make sense try to answer the questions arising:
    - why would russian troops stay in Crimea for suck a long time being a nice information example for the western media and doing nothing that they should really do? I mean if russian troops would go now and at least not block the ukrainian military but assault these bases then there will be no any worse news in your media and there is no risk for them that they will get a strike to the back from these bases if ukrainian forces decide to counter-attack... Does it make sense? In case of local guys who have taken the weapons it does make sense. They blocked the weapon resources and cut military bases from possible bloody orders of a new facist power in Kiev. And they don't assault because it is not needed. And they don't go to other regions because it is not their home.

    - Why would Putin decide to scare ukrainians on Maidan who want a prosperous life and are still in the streets NOT BELIEVING the current facist power? I understand that Putin is bad according to an opinion of average american and bad people just like to make the lives of others difficult but it is just stupid. And Putin has never done anything really stupid has he?
    On the other hand the news about 'Putin's aggression' is very very needed by the western media and ukrainian facists in power. Because at the moment they have shocking news for all the people and they have a nice reason for every illegal action. US has increased the number of its fighters in Baltic countries. Kiev is now arresting the protesters in Donetsk and Odessa. Why? Because of 'russian threat'. But is it really proved? Not. How would you explain that? :)

    2. As for Russia and russians who need to be under pressure according to you. At the moment the agents paid from west (after the law of foreign agents that exist in Russia due to the money of department of state) are trying to start some activities in Moscow and Saint Petersburg. These meetings being illegal are taken off. All the information about them only irritates the russians who obviously are against facists as much as their ukrainian brothers.

    If Russia invades ukraine and starts to fight with ukrainians then for sure there will be a lot protests against the war. But as long as their is no war - there are no protests.
     
  11. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Crimea has always a region for military men. Note that ukrainian military bases are blocked in case they don't put up with an ultimatum to... give their weapons to the 'russian military'. Now can you imagine that military base in military regions have bazookas and heavy machineguns? So that means that first of all the guys went to the base where their fellows are serving and they have taken the weapons from there. Then they went with the weapons to the bases that they haven't had connections and blocked them. If you find this explanation funny and non-realistic try to explain what makes a joke. :)
    As for russians. I mostly heard that the question was who are you and the answer was that the guys are russians. Small wonder, because recently you learnt that russians are majority in Crimea. And I can imagine that some of the armed people in Crimea are from Russia. It can be friends, army friends, relatives or just the russians who don't like facists and are supporting Ukraine and russians there, which is more than 95% of Russia's population. Have they asked for Putin's order to go to Crimea? Now that would be a koke IMHO. :)
     
  12. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    I think that Putin is unable to invade the whole of Ukraine if he wanted to because of political and logistic reasons. Ukraine is not Georgia, both in geographic size and military.Besides, only Crimea is critical to Putin, this is where the naval bases are, the rest of Ukraine is desirable but not critical.
    The Russian troops cannot attack Ukrainian soldiers. It would probably cross a fine line behind which it would be too hard to get afterwards. And the pressure can be mounted by just holding positions anyway - for now.

    Putin would decide to pressure Ukrainians because he wants to get back to the status quo from before, meaning another Putin-man in charge of Ukraine.

    For sure there are Western agents in Russia trying to stir things up and for sure there are Russian agents in the EU. But I think that it's a mistake to conclude that every protest in Russia against the government is financed/organized by the West. There's definitely involvement but there's also true grievances as well. But anyway, I don't want to get into this too much since what happens inside Russia is your own business.



    Just to clear up my point of view, this is not about West vs Russia, good vs bad. They're both good and bad. It's about concentrated power structures such as heads of state with executive powers who will do almost anything to gain more power and money and authority.Putin is doing it now, Bush was doing it in Iraq, etc...
     
  13. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    But for some reason they are all wearing Russian style military clothing? :). They couldn't have gotten them from the bases.

    Seriously now, did you see the pictures with the soldiers? They are all perfectly equipped, every one of them, and very disciplined. + the 20+ personnel carriers. This does not seem like a local militia at all. If you want to see a local militia, those would be the guys who fought with the Berkut in the Maidan - ad-hoc clothing, nu automatic weapons and poor discipline.
     
  14. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    No mountains. No problem with roads. And a tem to one ration in soldiers. And if we count the russian soldiers living in Ukraine who will definetely rather shoot at fascists than on russians it makes the logistic and policy even easier comparing to Georgia where one platoon can easily block russian armor units in the mountain road and make a severe damage. Besides, it was extremely difficult to realise the advantage in numbers. Putin used in the Ukraine not only the roads which were not enough because of poor roads but also paradrops and marines as a potential threat. A single flop of any and it would be a risk. As for Ukraine there are no such risks. The armor units can go as fast as they can occupying south and east cutting the western Ukraine of the central and creating a flank threat the very first day. And the army at the moment will not be able to respond because of lack of power in Kiev. West recognises fascist much more than the ukrainians do so.

    Another? And what was a pro-Putin's action that was ever made by Yanukovich? I understand that the media tells it. But we already saw that pretty much everything that your media is telling about Russia is just another lie. So what fact made you thinking that Yanukovich is Putin's man?


    You can always tell the western intiative of a russian problem. If it is on the news the same day or the other day - then it has a western origin. If the news come after a week then it can be a russian driven riot.

    Agree. Good point to agree. Putin has never been holy. He has his liberal weaknesses as well. But the situation in Ukraine is not about gaining more power. It's a vital clash between all the major powers of the world. Every side has its vital interest. EU has already invested into the Ukraine very much efforts. Last year it was planned to have a triumph of the EU with the free trade zones around Russia. But eventually Modova's signiture wil bring it a separatist movement not only in a long independent Pridnestrovye but also in Gagauzia, Armenia would rather lean to Russia's custom union Ukraine hasn't signed the long awaited document the last moment... So if EU doesn't take the Ukraine it loses its face and the next elections eurosceptics will probably win and cut a lot of a european dream.
    The US has a vital need to weaken its main competitor and to make it hard for EU to get to natiral and energy resources from Russia. So if all the Ukraine and Baltic countries would burn in a terrorist attack to Russia it will only do good, rising the necessity for american protection for all the world against an aggressive Russian Putin or smth of a kind. A loss in the Ukraine would mean the complete place of Obama as sissy in american history and the big-eared guy who lost everything to an ugly russian.
    Russian loss in Ukraine would mean a complete collapse of trust into it from the side of those who seek a powerful player and ally. Kazakhstan and Belarus are no puppets. They all hae their interests and if they see that Russia backed off just because of a media attack and phone calls oversea they will never start reintegration preferring China or EU or any highest bidder.
    I think that this is exactly how wars are started. It is a model situation when the stakes are high and every side would rather seek to win in this poker game assuming that their position at the river point can be winning... It looks like a turning point in the history, which is frankly speaking quite scaring.
     
  15. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The guys on Maidan are clerks, guards and waiters. Plus lots of students and schoolboys. Only a small potion of well-organised fascists like Pravy sector. The guys who live in Crimea are mostly from families of military people. They served in the army after their parents and granparents and greatgrandparents down to 17th century in some cases. I would be very surprised if their;militia would be worse than a fascist one who had not more than a half year training before the Maidan show.
    The machine guns and other weaponry is a question. I don't know where it was taken from. But the story from Putin is not at all hopeless. I can very well imagine that the unform was taken from a store. I can buy the same. Old military trucks which are still in order is even easier to buy. We have two kinds in our farm. One is military fuel truck and the other we use as a mobile workshop. Military trucks can go the roads where only they and tractors can go. Besides it is really cheaper than a new civil truck.So if you have connections in Russia than it is good buy. More than possible.
    But the armor and weapons is not for sale. I have however several decent possible explanations.

    But again:
    1) I cannot imagine an invasion of Russia just to block the military bases. It is not worthy of it. It's a thousand year-old tactics and itwill not work. There's no point. It is either strike or it is better to wait at the russian territory.
    2) The militia can do without a strict hierarchy of commanders. But russian army would for sure have at least one headquarters with the commander-in-chief. An invasion without a commander is not working.
    3) All the machinery in russian army has specific ID-numbers. It is impossible to take themoff before the invasion and it is useless to use it by militia. These numbers I have never seen on any video.
    4) And again russian military has a plan of action for every situation. But it will never come into the country for the sake of waiting until the political decisions are made. There cannot be such a plan.It's unplannable.

    So seriously. Very seriously the sight of an armed russian in Crimea doesn't makeme thinking that it is an invader from another country. The first thing I would think off is the russian crimean who again (it is not the first time) took a weapon to protect his peninsula against fascists.
     
  16. Darketernal

    Darketernal Member

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    This has got nothing to do with Nazi's, I fail to see an associating line between Adolf Hitler's Nazi party from over 60 years ago and the current angry mob in Kiev, of course you can put a general tag on anyone as being a Nazi, but to me it is only proof that the Russians are still stuck in a fixed cold war setting. Rather it doesn't have to be in this way, you can set yourself free.

    Realistically everyone and everything was at war for over thousands of years, Russia is no different from the West in that regard. It is with modern mass media how we can finally realise how futile these mass killings and wars have been and how self damaging to our own economies and our own families getting killed in the proces of wars that we say "ok to here and no further" it's stupid and war's insanity has gone too far, and to accept everyone's humanity as being the same everywhere and go for cooperation rather then destroying each other.

    And i am really worried about your state of mind , its like you are saying "damnation is inevitable" , no , it doesn't have to be in that way. If you get to learn people, you'll notice that people in Western Europe are just as human as Russians in Russia. Cooperation IS possible.

    The EU is not a dreamland, rather with an attempted intelligence, cooperation and hard work it tries to achieve economic prosperity. Besides politicians are terrible and never listen no matter where you go on this planet. What else is new?
    I think one needs to realise that the EU only started with 3 countries far away from Russia, if it really was meant as a threat towards Russia , the EU would have started with Germany, and then go through former Eastern countries to set up European missles against Russia. That indeed happened under Nato, but the cold war is over, many of the weapons have been removed, demolished or have become redundant. Russia shouldn't be afraid or use that as an oppertunity to invade, rather to use it as a oppertunity to come together. Well i don't want to sound like an old hag, and saying we need to hug each other like friends, but the old threat is gone and we shouldn't drag on and on about it.

    It has been disbanded, there are only remnants left, scars if you will from WW2, people were afraid of Russia's power and communism, but that fear has mostly subsided. Afteral Russia and the United States never have been really "technically" at war. Its only as a result of Adolf Hitler's domino WW2 after effect that the two big countries really came to be positioned side to side in Germany split and the cold war.




    Well you could reason the other way around as well for the Russians who don't want to be part of Europe due to their allience with Russia, but we live in a mostly free world, and you should be allowed to be part of what you want to be part of. You don't have to be forced to be European or Russian, just live on the side were you want to live. If Crimeans vote to be part of Russia, great. I just want people to be happy in living the life that they want to live.

    One cannot deny that denial takes place, but we have to keep searching for the truth.

    I would still welcome Russia with both arms, Russia shouldn't be denied just because of its size ,past or former position not to join the European union, Its perfectly ok for Russia to have a leading position in the European union, its exactly because of its size and economic importance to let Russia become a part of the European union.

    Western Europeans are a bunch of fearfull sheep though, therefore if Russia wants to join the European union,they need to take the first step and make it clear, the EU is too afraid to ask Russia directly, maybe it can be done once this Crim situation has been resolved. Russia only has to show the European Union that they will come in peace, and then further developments of allowing Russia to the European Union will follow.

    I hope that the Crimeans will be allowed to vote, personally i don't like the agressive tone of the new government in Kiev, saying things like 'oh we will never allow the Crim to become part of Russia etc etc, I also don't like how the new government tries to align all Western European armies against Russia, we here in Europe are extremely displeased by the unstable Ukraine situation that could possible in a worst case scenario lead to a WW3. Preferably i would like to bypass the Ukraine government and just talk directly to Russia to resolve things peacefully, and let internal referendums decide which provinces of the Ukraine are added to Russia, and which provinces of the Ukraine are added to Europe by the decision of the Ukrainian people themselves. In this way everyone can be happy without causing a war.

    We cannot let those who bald their fists and say 'oh we never will let the crim go' have it go their way, and fight a senseless war over a piece of note well bankrupt land which isn't worth any human life to sacrifice over.

    So look beyond the past into the future for a joint economic cooperation that wil not cost the unnecessary loss of lives which leads to prosperity.
     
  17. EvilAztec

    EvilAztec Banned

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    [video=youtube;5SBo0akeDMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY[/video]
     
  18. EvilAztec

    EvilAztec Banned

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    Third Reich has began in one country in Germany, the EU just made it but more successful .
    More then 20 years Western Ukraine was a large field under protect by Germans and Americans for breeding ukrainian nazis.
     
  19. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    Then how do you explain this?
    http://www.stopfake.org/en/4th-comp...the-north-caucasus-military-district-subunit/
     
  20. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    You're thinking too much in geo-political terms. What does "Russian loss in Ukraine" mean? The loss that the Russian population will face or the loss that Putin will face? I think the second is true.
    In my view the Russian population is already loosing by having yet another soon to be authoritarian figure in charge.And the Crimea people will also loose by associating themselves with Russia's Putin regime.

    Again, having said that I don't mean to say that Ukraine will be soo much better off associating itself with the EU. The EU tries to gain another cheap marketplace in Eastern Europe (same as it did with my country) by eliminating customs taxes. The Urakinians will also loose either way but probably will loose less if they associate with the EU.

    Far from being holy, Putin is like any other "statesman" , he puts "Russian interests" - as in his own - above the interests of the Russian population and more dramatically, above the interests of other nations. The only difference between him and other "statesmen" is that the Russian population cannot put as much pressure on him as other nations, such as in the EU or US, hence he is capable of much more just that at the moment he doesn't yet have the power to do so.
     
  21. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    You want to purchase one? If you give me the money I will get you one like that. There is no sensation. This car was first made about ten years ago and it's for sale... As for number plates it is interesting. It shows that it from north caucases. So the car is not a proof. You can But the number plates are.

    At least once I tupe into the Google "ГАЗ 2330 купить" (GAZ-2330 buy) I see lots of offers. For a 100 000 USD before shipment I can try to get you the toy which would look exactly like in th picture.

    As for the plates. I can explain these as a russian MOD like a provocation or that the owner of this Tiger purchased these number plates to show off. Because the North Caucases is supposed to be a territory like a wild west sevral centuries ago by some romantics. There are different reasons of course, but I would stop aat these.
     
  22. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    I mean the similar process as happened with hundreds of thousands of russians who fled from the old republics of USSR, losing lives, houses, jobs, future, etc. That made our clothes industry to close. Because the cotton was changed into heroin and instead of raw materials we are getting drugs. For the moment the countries near afchanistan are nothing but its continuation and the only contact between the republics are done at the border by the military. Once they were claiming independence they wanted to liv much better and now they illegally come to do the dirtiest and cheapest jobs. The Ukraine is not any better at this point rather than Tajikistan or Kirgizia.

    If the Ukraine and ukrainians were joining the EU as a partner or as a market or as labour force it would still be OK with everyone. But it would mean that they wouldn't vilate against democratic procedures. It means that they wouldn't forbid russian language. And they for sure wouldn't sign a free trade agreemnt with EU on the conditions without checking their own agreements with Russia.

    Authoritarian is nothing. Some people here call Obama authoritarian... If I go to th UK and shout there at some holy place like westminster abbey that all the kings are spoiling the universe and England is suffreing because of the queen who should kill herself I wouldn't be a democrat and it wouldn't be a fight for the freedom. It'll be yet another stupidity. IMHO.
     
  23. highhopes

    highhopes New Member

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    He wanted to show off? Where would he buy the plates since these are military plates?
    Here's another owner with a Tigr with russian military plates : http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/...ps-in-Ukraine-raise-fear-of-Abkhazia-scenario.
    Here are other types of vehicles which have russian military plates : https://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/the-crimean-crisis-2014/ (second picture).
    So the Crimean pro-russian insurgents bought all these vehicles of russian manufacture and put russian military plates on all of them? Why would they put plates on all of them?

    Another question would be how were they able to hide all these vehicles up until now? It seems like you would need to completely hide a whole army from the Ukrainian forces all this time.

    Try to put yourself in the shoes of an non-russian observer such as myself and ask yourself, what's more probable : hundreds of crimean pro-russian militants equipped with full military attire and guns, with tens (as in more than 20) of military vehicles all having russian military plates decide to occupy military bases in Crimea OR part of the north caucasus Russian army entered and occupied the bases.
     
  24. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    There are multiple ways to get the plates. But the easiest for this situaation would be making it. A road police will never stop such a machine to check the documents. :)

    The photos are different and the situation is different. The truck with the plates "90" belongs to Black sea fleet which is based in Crimea before it was made ukrainian territory and which is located there due to the agreement between Russia and Ukraine governments. These trucks are a part of the Russian forces. But again. I can use any number plates as long as noone can stop me. even "CIA AGENT", but that would be no evidence that I work for CIA.
    As for money it is a free world, right? Or the westerners are somewhat "free'er"? :)

    Well. Most americans didn't know that russians represent a majority in Crimea. How was it possible to conceal such a fact by absolutely free (as stated) western media? It just happened. It requires a lot of organisation, discipline and organisational talents. But it is real.

    Of course the picture of militants is more realistic. Because the decision to occupy Crimea made in no time after the coup in Kiev is just impossible to be performed. North Caucases is located far away from Crimea and it would require a lot of people knowing about this decision. It is almost impossible to do without being detected by US means of observation. The organisation of lives of thousands of russian soldiers in winter and in someone else's territory would take months. We have just solved such a logistic task with the Olympics but it took several years.

    So what I think realistic and a lil bit dirty is having all these pieces of machinery and weapons in Crimea just in case that it will be some danger like it happened in the Ukraine. Now this is realistic. But it is not proved. As for the people themselves I am more than 1000% sure that at least most part of it are crimean residents and citizens of what used to be Ukraine before the coup.

    But it can also be that people there purchased this equipment themselves. You probably have never seen the guys especially military people who like weapons. They would reather not watch a movie and eat something sweet. But they would buy another scope for their rifle and they would spend half a year with adjusting it together and learning how to use it. Of what I saw in the photos - there is no common rule or order with the militants but their weapons is all new and very clean. The soldiers who are mobilized are forced to keep their weapon clean before they don'r feel that it is a matter betweeen their own life and death. And these guys are looking after the weapons before they entered into any battle.

    Think out of the box! :) Think with your own arguements. And you will see what exactly made you to think that there has ever been russian invasion in Crimea. :)
     

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