Subjective Morality

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by yguy, Feb 23, 2019.

  1. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    My goal is to get you to debate with some intellectual honesty. That means no more selective quoting and no more arbitrarily editing definitions when they hurt your argument.
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Read my question again. I was asking specifically for the link between subjectivity and being a human construct (and/or made up). In all your examples, you still haven't approached answering my question. You haven't even mentioned the word subjective in your post. I'm not spouting meaningless questions here, I am asking questions aimed at boiling down what our difference of opinion actually is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  3. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ..sheesh.. ok. I thought i was addressing the concepts of the topic, not some legalistic precision of word definitions.

    Subjective = human construct

    Human constructs can be overtly imagined, or possible Reality, depending on actual reality.

    Example: Bigfoot
    IF.. there really is a bigfoot, then its obscurity is the only reason to conclude, 'human imagination!', or construct.
    But IF there is no bigfoot, but an active human imagination created it, THEN it is a human construct.. imaginary, only.

    In the context of this thread, 'human construct' is contrasted with 'Real', in regard to morality. It is EITHER:
    Real, embedded by God, or
    Imagined, a human construct

    If morality is a human construct, and not a Real Thing, embedded by God, then any moralizing is subjective opinion.. arbitrary, whimsical, imagined. Pick whatever you like from the morality smorgasbord, and it is as good or bad as anyone's.

    BUT.. if morality is an OBJECTIVE ABSOLUTE, implanted in the human psyche as a guide for behaviour,
    THEN.. it is a Real Thing, not imagined or contrived.

    I don't see this as being very complex, or difficult to grasp. It is very simple and obvious. The reasons for disputing it are not. ;)
     
  4. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And this line of reasoning falls apart when it is noted that there is no universal morality implanted into humans.

    Morality is widely varied across human cultures across history. There has never been any time in recorded history when all humans have had the same universal morality.
     
  5. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ..so you believe. But the facts and observation proves otherwise.

    There is a core set of 'Values', in every region, era, and culture. The Enlightenment philosophers called them 'Natural Law.' The American Founders delineated them into the mission statement, in the Declaration of Independence.

    Morality is a very real, Thing, universally 'felt' and defined as 'conscience.' Pretending it does not exist will not make it go away, and even among those who deny it, almost all follow it in their own lives.

    Do not most atheists claim to be 'moral!'? Do they not exhibit, in themselves, this universal moral code?

    Morality is NOT, imo, a human construct, but a Divinely embedded Real Thing, put there as a guide for behaviour. Observable Reality confirms this.
     
  6. Hawkins

    Hawkins Active Member

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    Objective moral value is what being written in our hearts by God. The baseline is set on "innocent person being harmed in one way or another" being immoral. The morality baseline of God is different. God's morality baseline is set on "innocent person being jailed in hell" being immoral. That's how Jesus laid His life for His sheep.

    Subjective moral value is about the layers of values added upon the original objective moral value written by God. These layers override some of the original values. These layers are from sources such as your culture, or your society or your parental education and etc. They are added upon the original godly value ever since when you are still in the womb of your mother.

    The part written by God is embedded in your soul (or more precisely your spirit) such that you can still retrieve after being overridden.

    Matthew 19:8 (NIV2011)
    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

    That being said. Satan has an influence on you when you are still in mother's womb. The Final Judgment will be based on the objective one, not those overridden versions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  7. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    then show your evidence
    and they are all specific to that region, not universal across all cultures.
    which is a lovely philosophical construct, but not empirical reality.
    morality is a human construct. there is no evidence of universal morality.
    based on their societal mores.
    observable reality does not. You would first need to prove the existence of this divine interventionist, before you can even begin to assert that it embedded a universal moral code.
     
  8. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    So the tenets of "Natural Law" are universal among all humans? Do the North Koreans abide by this supposed Natural Law? How about ISIS?
     
  9. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Subjective morality is literally the title of the thread. Definitions are how we make sure we're talking about the same thing.

    Would you say that a morality instilled by evolution is objective or subjective?
     
  10. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    'Subjective morality' is an oxymoron. The very definition of 'morality!', is that it is NOT subjective, but a common, universal sense in man.. at least in the context of this thread.

    If morality is subjective.. if it can be whatever you choose, then it is arbitrary, and not 'morality!', at all. It is just human platitudes or delusions, imposed on others for manipulation. Hitler can eliminate inferior stock, or Mother Theresa can ease the suffering of the poor, and both are just meaningless choices in a meaningless universe. IF there are no Absolute Moral Directives, given by God, to guide our choices, and help us distinguish between right and wrong, THEN anything goes, and only power determines what is 'right'.

    If morality is Real.. an embedded conscience with clear, universal guidelines of behavior, then subjectivizing it would be to destroy it, as a Real Thing in the human psyche.

    It is like saying, 'subjective arithmetic.' Or, 'subjective science'. Morals are either absolute, or they don't exist at all. If you can pick and choise anything, and call it 'morality!', then it is the same, functionally, as amorality, or no morality at all.

    If some meaningless moral inclinations were instilled in a godless universe, they would be delusions.. not a Real Thing, to guide choices. They would be mere tools for manipulators, for their agenda.
     
  11. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    In what sense would they not be a real thing? It would be physically present, verifiably guiding our choices, that sounds to me like a verifiably real thing, hardly an delusion.

    You cannot change things instilled in you by evolution, just like you can't change your number of arms or your propensity for cancer. To equate that to a morality which you can choose is simply a failure to understand the position I'm presenting. It seems to me, the idea that morality is by definition not subjective is your personal brand of newspeak, which is probably the reason you can't successfully address or even comprehend the ideas that are presented to you.
     
  12. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Morality and ethical standards are subjective by definition and personal to each individual. There are of course societal norms that often play into those personal attributes but, the finer details seem to be the result of nurture, experience and peer interaction amongst the many complexities we all use to create who we are and what we think/believe. Love is an excellent example as well as sexual life....some are fine swinging and sharing while others find the very idea repulsive, yet both are moral to those involved.
     
  13. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    And what definition would that be?
     
  14. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of them.
    mo·ral·i·ty
    /məˈralədē/
    noun
    noun: morality
    1. principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
      synonyms: ethics, rights and wrongs, correctness, ethicality More
      "the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons"
      virtue, goodness, good behavior, righteousness, rectitude, uprightness;
      morals, principles, honesty, integrity, propriety, honor, justice, fair play, justness, decency, probity, chasteness, chastity, purity, blamelessness
      "the past few years have seen a sharp decline in morality"
      moral standards, morals, moral code, ethics, principles of right and wrong, rules of conduct, standards/principles of behavior, ethos, mores, standards, ideals
      "orthodox Christian morality"
      antonyms: immorality
      • a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
        plural noun: moralities
        "a bourgeois morality"
      • the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
        "behind all the arguments lies the issue of the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons"
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  15. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Then one cannot help but wonder...
    ...why the hell you couldn't find one that even implies subjectivity.
     
  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do know what principles are...correct?
     
  17. FlamingLib

    FlamingLib Well-Known Member

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    1. If moral relativism is true, then, depending on your viewpoint, X is a good thing.
    2. No matter what the viewpoint, X is not a good thing.
    3. Therefore, moral relativism cannot be true.

    X can be any heinous thing. The holocaust, raping children, paying homeless people to fight each other, torturing small animals, etc. The moral relativist ends up having to say some truly awful things are "good". It falls prey to reductio ad absurdum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  18. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Of course. Figure they're always subjective, do you?
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Anything unique to the individual is inherently subjective.
     
  20. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    And the way you figure it, principles are always unique to the individual. Right?
     
  21. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That would be correct. Though as previously indicated, Societal norms and pressures do play a role in developing personal principles. As an example, I do not drink alcohol but you might...this is a principled stance on the impaired actions being drunk entails and a perceived negativity in presents.
     
  22. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Then I'm dying to hear which version of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies uniquely to you.
     
  23. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Objective morality is a concept created by religion. Christians claim that THEIR morals are the only true morals, and use that as an excuse to attack the rights of anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with their moral views.

    There are religions that don't have any issues with homosexuality or gay marriage, for example, and yet Christians believe that they have the moral authority to tell them that their beliefs are wrong and force Christian morality on them through law. Bans on gay marriage, when they were legal, make it a crime for non-Christian churches, who didn't have any issues with gay marriage to hold them. It literally forced these churches to follow Christian dogma.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  24. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Either you are attempting to confuse a very simple issue with distraction or you are simply not very bright. Quantum Physics have absolutely NOTHING to do with morality.
     
  25. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No, that's just what the enemies of morality would dumb it down to.
    Get real, children understand objective morality before they can spell religion, whether they're reared in religious households or not.
    Again, this thread is about morality, not morals.
    No, that's what you're doing. All I've done is show that your operating definition of principles, on which your claim about morality hinges, is bogus.
     

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