Subsidize Adoption?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by modernpaladin, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Good response.

    Too many want to claim the moral high ground for free, ignoring the real world issues involved.
     
  2. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    what? how did you manage to work rape into that?

    bizarro.
     
  3. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    since we know what causes pregnancy, we can only assume that anyone who IS pregnant (other than the bizarrely mentioned rape victims) is pregnant by choice. if you choose to be pregnant, you understand the gravity of being responsible for a new life, and the full weight of this is grasped and embraced. your fluctuating personal moods and comforts are grotesquely irrelevant, in comparison to the import of your position.
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You would have to ask the pregnant woman, it is her choice and hers alone...
     
    Zeffy and FreshAir like this.
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) What a load of Hilarious Horsepuckey....who writes that for you , Hallmark Cards??

    FIRST, NO woman can choose to get pregnant, she either will or won't. Only 7% of sexual encounters end up in pregnancy so again, no, a woman cannot choose to get pregnant...



    Here's the really funny stuf :

    You: "" if you choose to be pregnant, you understand the gravity of being responsible for a new life,""

    You do? How would you know what every pregnant woman "understands"? The sentence itself is illogical....makes no sense....the first phrase doesn't necessarily lead to the next phrase.....


    You said: ""and the full weight of this is grasped and embraced."""

    WTF ? No woman has to grasp or embrace anything she doesn't want to grasp and embrace.....she did enough "grasping and embracing"" to get pregnant so maybe she's through with it.

    Now for the humdinger.

    You stated: ""your fluctuating personal moods and comforts are grotesquely irrelevant, in comparison to the import of your position""

    What a pompous piece of pontificating poop.

    NO, the effects of pregnancy on a woman, which are much more than "fluctuating personal moods and comforts" , are for her to decide to accept or not.

    SWEET JAYSUS, is that all you really think pregnancy entails????
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    there's your problem then. women who think it's all about them.

    our poor kids.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    How did you manage to leave rape and incest out of this discussion??
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    because they're not common, obviously. what percentage of pregnancies are the result of rape or incest?

    yeah, bit silly trying to use that to defend the much higher number of women who are 'upset' by pregnancy.
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It IS all about them and their rights... Pregnancy IS all about women....you got one thing right....

    What about your "poor kids"? Kids have nothing to do with abortion........

    But "poor kids" ?...I've been in another thread where repubs are fighting tooth and nail to take food away from "poor kids"...they think starving children are fine because they aren't starving to DEATH...they don't think this "Christian" nation should feed it's poor children to teach their parents a lesson...so don't saying "poor kids" to me.....fetuses aren't starving.


    I see you couldn't address anything in my post that you quoted.....

    NOW here's a big lesson for anyone who IGNORANTLY thinks pregnancy is ""your fluctuating personal moods and comforts are grotesquely irrelevent"":

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
    Zeffy likes this.
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Sorry.

    I do not accept that rape and incest victims may be ignored.
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    this is about the ordinary pregnancy. you're using rare instances to justify common inability to cope with pregnancy.
     
  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Here's an ordinary pregnancy :

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, it is about abortion rights.

    Your strategy here has been to try to limit the situation in various ways such that your assault on women's rights could be viewed as acceptable.

    The catch is that the laws you want affect all women - not just the ones you despise so deeply.
     
    FoxHastings likes this.
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Once that embryo reaches viability, it's ABSOLUTELY about the child. The only part of it which is about the woman, is her responsibility to stay alive.

    Again, if you've chosen pregnancy (weren't raped, obviously) by engaging in unprotected sex, you've accepted the above. If you don't accept the above, buy a goldfish.

    PS: I know about pregnancy. I've done it a few times. I also gave birth a few times, without any pain medication. Not even gas. I also, FTR, breastfed all my kids for at least 18 months. I never once asked someone else to do night feeds, and none of my kids had a pacifier ... ever. I wore all of them in a sling or front pouch, around the clock. They all slept with us from birth until 2 years of age. I CHOSE to have kids, the very least I could do was make them the focus of my existence for those important early years.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Another weird statement with some kind of twisted "logic"... yes, fetuses are protected after 23 weeks....that still doesn't make it about the child entirely. If the woman life is in danger she can abort even after that.

    The woman has no responsibility to "stay alive" ...and it is all about the woman...a fetus doesn't have rights and women do even if you hate the idea...




    Again, no woman can CHOOSE to get pregnant ( I see you really don't read my posts before you quote them and that adds to your not looking too , er, "understanding")


    Women cannot choose to get pregnant.....if you believe this to be true how is that done?

    Does she pray to the Sperm Control God?

    No, consent to one act, sex, is not consent to any other act, "getting pregnant"

    Or get an abortion...:)





    OMGAWD, you had kids and have no idea what pregnancy does to you !!!!

    The rest of that paragraph is the most irrelevant bizarre hogwash I've seen yet..

    WTF does your breast feeding have to do with women's right to have an abortion......!!!?????
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
    Renee likes this.
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Every birth control method has a failure rate. Some are surprisingly large. In the following, notice that 18% that choose male condoms get pregnant within the first year!
    http://www.arhp.org/Publications-an...e-for-Clinicians/choosing/failure-rates-table

    In all these cases, the couple took action, clearly choosing that pregnancy is NOT OK.

    And, again, you are dodging rape and incest.
     
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  17. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    some people get pregnant from rape, do you feel they should be able to abort... yes or no?
     
  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    preventing unwanted pregnancies is the preferable option

    forcing a 13 year old to have a baby is wrong, but, if she chooses to risk her life trying to have a baby, have at it, her choice
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Within the context of the conversation... between the options of subsidized adoption decreasing the rate of abortion but increasing the rate of children raised in poverty and neglect vs the option of less children raised in poverty or neglect because they were aborted instead... which would you prefer going on?

    No one is forcing anyone to do anything btw. Im pro-choice. I seek to promote voluntary solutions, incentives and alternatives to decrease abortion, not ban it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    My preference is women deciding for themselves what they want for their fetus.

    As to your two choices I prefer : ""the option of less children raised in poverty or neglect because they were aborted instead"".

    Decreasing the rate of abortion just so more children will be raised in poverty is asinine...and illogical.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  21. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Creating a subsidy for adoption is fine as long as it has no strings attached.
     
  22. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not 'just so more children will be raised in poverty', its so more children will live. Its not a 'logic' issue, its a moral one.
     
  23. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Having unprotected sex doesn't mean he or she wants a child. If one doesn't want to accept it , there are consequences. For the female she can have an abortion, for the male he is responsible for support for 18 years if she chooses to carry it to term
     
  24. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    We aren't talking about children. A ZEF is not a child
     
  25. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    We aren't talking about viable fetuses. Healthy women with healthy fetuses are not aborted.
     

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