Sweden is Not a Socialist Success

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Hoosier8, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Greed is hurting this country. Eliminating corporations without eliminating privilege would make very little difference, other than making it clearer who the privilege owners are.
     
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Liberty, justice and truth ARE the solution. Hello? You just either don't understand what they are, or, more likely, know what they are but are against them.
    Nonsense. It's nothing to do with me personally. That's just your attempt to evade the discussion of principle by making it all about me as an individual. Sorry, but I am quite comfortable, as I am smart enough to get along in an unjust system and even take advantage of it. I'm not personally experiencing any great hardship because of the injustices I oppose, but other people ARE. Similarly, the abolitionists were not asking to be emancipated themselves. They weren't the ones suffering the most because of slavery. They were opposed to the injustice being inflicted on slaves. I'm not sure what part of that you are having so much difficulty understanding.
    Ahem. I'm the one here doing the thinking, and it is the productive, not the privileged, doing all the work, and I will thank you to remember it.
    People all experience hunger the same way, but they do not all experience injustice the same way. Some are the beneficiaries of injustice, others are the victims. No one feels satiation when someone else feels hunger; but the privileged are definitely made richer by the injustice that makes others poorer.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is a more insightful post than you realize.

    describes a certain group of people to a tee...
     
    crank likes this.
  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    WHAT exactly are those things to YOU? Truth is different for every person. Justice is different for every person. Liberty is different for every person. You have provide zero definitions for any of these three bleats. NOTHING. How on earth are you supposed to transmit your message when no one even knows what you're selling? Are you selling YOUR truth/justice/liberty? Or mine? Or someone else's? Whose, exactly?

    If it is your version of those things .. tell us how you'll convince us to abandon our version in favour of yours. How exactly, is yours better? Ours may well be better than yours, then where are you? As long as you're simply punching ideas in the face and not doing a thing to model the changes you hope for, this whole thing is just virtue signalling. All change starts with us .. and it's not words the world needs, it's action.
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand that greed is a survival instinct common to all animals?

    How do you plan on eliminating it from the species? And how will you handle the nihilism which will result?

    Meantime, show us how much you eschew greed by abandoning your cushy First World capitalist lifestyle. We may be convinced that humanity can do better if you show us it can be done.
     
  6. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I use definitions that are consistent with the dictionary ones, though sometimes stated more clearly and precisely. Liberty is not being prevented by others from doing what you would otherwise be free to do. Justice is rewards commensurate with contributions to the welfare of others and losses commensurate with deprivations imposed on others. Truth is accurate representation of objective reality.
    Every person has his own perceptions, but science is founded on the axiom that objective reality is commonly observable by all.
    Not according to the above definition.
    Only in the sense that what one would otherwise be free to do depends on one's circumstances. E.g., if someone had forcibly prevented me from marrying my wife, that would have violated my liberty rights because she was willing to marry me. It would not violate the liberty rights of any man (or woman) she was unwilling to marry anyway.
    I assume people are familiar with the dictionary meanings of these words in the relevant senses. But I am aware that people use equivocation fallacies and other dodges to evade their meanings. That's why I sometimes resort to clear and precisely worded definitions that remove ambiguity.
    If you would prefer definitions different from those above, please specify them and explain why.
    By explaining why mine would be better even for you.
    It gets the incentives right.
    I've explained why it isn't.
    <yawn> Is that what you would have told the abolitionists? To shut up about slavery and go live in a free state if they hated slavery so much?
    The world needs clarity, honesty, justice, knowledge, honesty, wisdom, courage, perseverance and honesty.

    Your call to "action" amounts to saying, "Shut up and get back on the treadmill." It's not responsive, and it's not helpful.
     
  7. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Greed is rapacious, excessive desire for more than one needs or deserves. It may be natural to experience greed, but that doesn't mean it enhances survival or that we have to submit to it.
    By replacing injustice that rewards it with justice that punishes it. Think of fair games like backgammon, go, and poker. If you are greedy, you will lose to good players. That's natural justice.
    Non sequitur.
    Getting more by deserving (earning) more isn't greed. Greed is trying to get more without deserving more.
    I'm doing my best.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Truths are ENTIRELY subjective. So is justice, and liberty, for that matter. I could hold it a truth that homosexuality is a sin and will see you burn hell (I don't, but plenty do think just that). A gay person could hold it a truth that god doesn't care about your sex life. Which truth is true? I could regard survival of the fittest 'justice' (and in nature, it more or less is), while you could hold that ensuring even the weakest link has the same boons as the strongest is 'justice' (and in so doing, kill the planet) .. which justice is the RIGHT justice? I could hold that liberty is freedom from First World dependency upon massive, polluting, capitalist infrastructure (and I do, as it happens), while you could regard it as the freedom to travel between nations without a visa. Who is correct?

    If you're arguing for facts, say so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  9. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Science is based on the fact that they aren't. Science works, so you are wrong.
    Not according to normal definitions.
    Which claim, you mean? Neither is true because there are no such things as hell or god.
    Yes, our understanding of justice is based on its value for our survival, though in a subtle and complex way.
    I've told you -- though most of us understand why we like our justice tempered with mercy and charity.
    That doesn't address the relevant issues.
    Visa requirements are an abrogation of liberty rights. One could argue that they are not necessary, but others argue they are. IMO a community has a right to exclude others whom they perceive as a threat.
    I'm definitely arguing for and with facts.
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Every pack and tribe since day dot is given to stockpiling 'more than needed' if the opportunity presents. We are hardwired for survival, and a significant part of that instinct is to assume that the worst is always just around the corner. The only difference between us and wolves is our access to the technology of greater accumulation. Work with what is.

    I agree that the punishment of 'greed' (which is expecting something for nothing) is probably essential at this point. I would start with ending welfare for able bodied adults other than for short periods in an emergency. Free healthcare for all citizens, and free education up to degree level for courses leading directly to well paid full-time employment in the field studied. Of course, we'll need to hang on to democratic capitalism in order to do this - since it's robust capitalism which affords such luxuries. But I guess you know that already :)

    As regards doing your best ... you can offer far more than just words. I've spent coming up for 30 years not playing along with the system, and have really barely spoken about it outside of this place. For me it's reality, not a pipe dream or 'someone else's responsibility'.

    Last but by no means least: We create the corporate monsters via our greed - our insatiable lust for more 'stuff'. It's us. They are simply exploiting the opportunity (we willingly provide them), like any ordinary animal.
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You basically confirmed everything I said. Are you aware of that?
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    :lol: I refuted you comprehensively and conclusively, you know it, and you have no answers. Simple.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    <sigh> Why are you pretending the other half of the definition isn't there?
    Wrong. Oh, so wrong. Wolves don't accumulate because their social model is zero-sum. Ours is not. Unlike wolves, we -- some of us, not you -- understand that JUSTICE benefits EVERYONE.
    That principle would have us still in the caves.
    That's one kind of greed. Many of the greedy are willing to work quite hard to get something for nothing. Google "rent seeking behavior" and start reading.
    I would never give people (rich or poor) cash for doing and contributing nothing, but if someone is sick or in need, especially children, they should be able to access help in kind -- food, medical care, a safe place to sleep, etc. -- from the community.

    But before we can end welfare, we have to end the system of landowner privilege, wherein able-bodied adults have to pay landowners full market value just for PERMISSION to have a job, to shop, to access public services and infrastructure, etc. I.e., to access economic opportunity. Too many people are not productive enough to afford to pay for permission to exercise their rights to liberty. That is an inherent result of human variability in a free market.
    Yes, medical care is a classic market failure that cannot be provided efficiently in a free market.
    I would support that, at least for people who show they have the required level of intellectual and academic ability.
    I know it is false. Hong Kong has done very well at providing for its people, and it has not been capitalist for over 160 years because all land there is publicly owned, as it is in China. THAT'S WHY CHINA IS OUTSTRIPPING THE CAPITALIST WORLD.
    Nothing is more important than knowledge.
    You cannot even imagine the weight of responsibility on one who knows how to end the greatest evil that has ever existed, and to do so must persuade its victims that they are not actually its beneficiaries.
    No. They are exploiting PRIVILEGE: legal entitlements to benefit from the abrogation of others' rights without making just compensation. It is massive, systematic, institutionalized INJUSTICE that has created the corporate monsters.
     
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Gosh .. wow. I had you down for smarter than that. Don't dissapoint me now.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) Wolves will drag every last piece of road kill back to their den, given the opportunity. I'm sure you don't imagine they have some kind of moral stopping point. They really don't. Their stopping point is opportunity, and that pesky lack of an opposable thumb.
    2) Ah .. yeah, that's the point. We need to go back to the cave. Or rather, the 21stC iteration of the cave.
    3) I referred ONLY to welfare for able bodied adults. As for the sick, the elderly, the disabled etc .. their first port of call should always be family. There must be some compunction upon families to take responsibility for their own. That's how collectives work.
    4) I don't care about 'intellectual aptitude' in relation to free education. My criteria would be limited to a completed degree in a vocational field of high demand. An idiot can do it, if he's sufficiently motivated. Academic success has little to do with intellect, at the end of the day. It's just brute hard work.
    5) You think Hong Kong has been a low economy commie hive all these years? Seriously? Oh my ....
    6) Knowledge is useless without the motivation and determination to put it to use. It's mere vanity, in the absence of action.
    7) What, are you Jesus?
     
  16. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, they won't, and it would be irrelevant in any case.
    Not moral, but instinctual. Their combats, for example, are rarely pursued to the point of death.
    Right. They are opportunistic. People have morals because we need them. Once our ancestors developed weapons, the destroyer's advantage over the producer became too one-sided to permit opportunistic aggression.
    No, there is no reason to go back to the cave.
    No. Families do try, in most cases, but the burden can easily become excessive, especially when medical care is made 5-10 times as costly (or more) by monopoly privilege. In cases of mental illness, addiction, and many chronic illnesses, a one-person tragedy can become a multi-person tragedy if the family tries to shoulder the burden of care. That is harmful to the community, and a wise community will take steps to prevent it.
    I do. It's wasteful to devote instructional resources to people who have motivation but not ability.
    No, he cannot. The US Army won't even enlist recruits with IQ under 83 (just one sigma below the mean), as there is nothing useful they can learn to do.
    False. Intelligence is the ability to understand, and in many fields of study, if you can't understand the phenomena of interest because they are too subtle and complex, you can't succeed.
    No, I said it hasn't, it has been highly prosperous, and has achieved that success WITHOUT CAPITALISM.
    But action in the absence of knowledge is destructive.
    He didn't know how to solve the problems I know how to solve. He didn't even mention them.
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) So are all social mammals. WE are social mammals. WE are opportunistic. We - like wolves - do best in small collective. Families, communes, religious groups, farming cooperatives, agrarian villages, etc etc. Any 'morals' we have are merely the drive to keep the 'pack' intact for the best survival chances of all.

    2) There is every reason to adopt a 21stC version of the cave. Until we find Planet B, that's probably our best hope.

    3) BS. Families cannot opt out of mutual obligation. THAT alone has done more to destroy us than anything else. It's the primary reason for social decay, and obscene levels of infrastructure at the expense of the Third World.

    4) If you think academic success hinges upon intellect, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you took some kind of Arts or Humanities degree. I'll be happily proven wrong if you're a doctor. It's about family support and hard work - nothing to do with smarts. In fact, some of my kids' ultra-intelligent high school friends are currently working at fast food outlets or dropping out of dead easy nonsense degrees, while my considerably less intellectual kids are aceing the hardest sciences (as in, you can only get in to the course if you're in top 1%) at one of the nation's top ranking universities. I don't think you understand how this stuff works, with respect.

    5) action should be directed to the survival of our 'pack', and the preservation of the resources which ensure that survival. anything beyond that is luxury, for which a very high price is paid.

    6) yes, I'm beginning to understand that there are some ideas of grandeur involved in your self-image.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    For those of you who are Swedes, how many of you are willing to give up your socialized health care in favor of Trump care?
     
  19. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    Georgist rants are always amusing
     
  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't see how adding "democratic" to socialism changes a thing. It is still about confiscation of property for redistribution.
     
  21. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    But somehow never refuted.....
     
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    <yawn> OK, so in what you are no doubt pleased to call your "mind," if social democratic is the same as democratic socialist, a fire engine is the same as an engine fire....?

    :lol:
     
  23. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    Lol, repeatedly refuted.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Nope.
    Proved false by history. The biggest collective in history -- China -- is now doing best of all. You are just objectively wrong.
    The survival chances of all are best served by getting oneself into a bigger collective that has more power. Look at China's population compared to Europe's.
    Silliness. There is no evidence -- none -- that people are having a significant deleterious effect on the planet. It's possible in the future, even the fairly near future, but it will be a result of advances in AI, bioweapons or nanotech, not our current industrial activities.
    Speaking of BS, they can and do. Open your eyes. The majority of black children in the US do not even live in the same house as their fathers.
    Nonsense with no basis in fact.
    Crime has plummeted in the last 40 years, and young people now have lower rates of unwed motherhood and STDs than 40 years ago. That's social decay?
    The advanced countries, especially the USA in the last ~70 years, have done a lot to harm the interests of the 3rd World, but our infrastructure is not built at the expense of the 3rd World.
    Among others.
    All statistics prove you wrong.
    If your kids are doing that well, they are far smarter than average. With respect, I can tell just by your writing that your IQ is about two sigmas above the mean, which means your spouse is probably at a similar level, and your kids are at least one sigma above the mean. With respect, you have NO FRICKIN' IDEA what it means for a kid to have an IQ one sigma -- let alone two -- BELOW the mean.

    And with respect, your kids aren't acing the hardest sciences. Those are math and physics, and no one aces math or physics without an IQ a couple of sigmas or more above the mean.
    That's not what history tells us.
    I didn't want this to be about me, but you have been relentlessly pushing to make it about me. That is normal, routine, and expected. All apologists for evil do it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  25. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Never. Not by anyone. And lots of people smarter than you have tried.
     

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