Texas. Acquired "fairly" / Stolen

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Moi621, Apr 24, 2021.

?

Texas. Acquired "fairly" / Stolen

  1. Fair

    12 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. Stolen

    3 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. Other - explain please

    6 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @Tejas

    From another thread.
    Good stuff, sadly off topic to the thread.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...to-avoid-crimea.586968/page-7#post-1072589469
    #163
    #170
    #171

    Was Texas acquired "fairly" or stolen.
    Did Anglos ever truly honor their arrangements with
    Empresarios and Mexico?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empresario
    These arrangements included conversion to Roman Catholicism
    and of course Loyalty to Mexico.


    BTW no doubt the leadership of Houston gave the rebels
    their final victory for secession from Mexico.

    The Battle of San Jacinto.
    A One Of The Top Ten list of battles for me,
    yet so over looked.




    Moi :oldman:



    SgtPreston-a.jpg
    Across an immense, unguarded, ethereal border, Canadians, cool and unsympathetic,

    regard our America with envious eyes and slowly and surely draw their plans against us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  2. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    You ever hear of the McGary family?

    Three McGary brothers fought to free Anglo Texas from draconian Mexico.

    I am descended from the McGary family.

    .
     
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  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My understanding was that Texas was taken by defeating Santa Anna and holding him hostage until he signed over Texas. If true, that's what I call a clearcut military victory and legitimate acquisition of land.
     
  4. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    The Battle of San Jacinto settled the Texas issue. Of course fair. Mexicans claim it was stolen but they fail to mention it was disputed Spanish territory. If anything, Mexico stole it from Spain.
     
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  5. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @Tejas
    Might you have a link to discussion of your family.
    Not doubting. Curious. LBJ claimed a family ancestry to San Jacinto.
    I cannot recall any ? McGary. But, I'm old and last heavily studied
    Texas 40 years ago.
    Do you have a copy of

    https://www.amazon.com/Raven-Biogra...uis+james+first+edition&qid=1619391965&sr=8-2
    first published in 1929.
    [​IMG].


    How sad - truly, Bill Paxton, a son of Texas, having found his
    "role", Sam Houston let modern medical advice kill him.
    Texas Rising also had too many "untruths" as a
    historical drama.
    For the same money, History Channel could have
    done it correctly. Like the number of Mexican cannon
    at San Jacinto vs the twin sisters.


    MAJOR BTW :woot: :woot:

    Remember those empressarios
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empresario

    Didn't Empressario Estaban Austin

    oppose the rebellion?
    What I remember he minimally did some fence sitting.


    Moi :oldman:
    Bravo Texas Navy and use of revolvers!






    Canada-3.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  6. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I put "other". Simple fact is that what is and isn't "fair" is subjective. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if it was obtained fairly or not. It is a part of the US whether people like it or not.
     
  7. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    Below is info available on internet. My sister [DAR] extensively researched our family tree [DAR obsession.]

    McGary, Daniel H.

    McGary, Isaac

    McGary, Jonathan A.

    All three were brothers in a large and famous McGary clan which includes Hugh McGary Jr who founded Evansville, Indiana [who was my g g g, grandfather.]

    http://www.drtinfo.org/ancestor-m

    http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org/sanjvetslist.htm

    https://www.sanjacinto-museum.org/Library/Veteran_Bios/Bio_page/?id=555&army=Texian

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/mcgary-dan-h

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/mcgary-isaac

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  8. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    Much of this reminds me of what is now happening in the USA.


    Texas Declaration of Independence

    The Unanimous Declaration of Independence
    made by the Delegates of the People of Texas
    in General Convention at the Town of Washington
    on the 2nd day of March 1836

    When a government has ceased to protect the lives liberty and property of the people, from whom its legitimate powers are derived, and for the advancement of whose happiness it was instituted; and, so far from being a guarantee for the enjoyment of those inestimable and inalienable rights, becomes an instrument in the hands of evil rulers for their oppression: When the Federal Republican Constitution of their country , which they have sworn to support, no longer has a substantial existence, and the whole nature of their government has been forcibly changed, without their consent, from a restricted federative republic, composed of sovereign states, to a consolidated central, military despotism in which every interest is disregarded but that of the army and the priesthood - both the eternal enemies of civil liberty, the ever ready minions of power, and the usual instruments of tyrants. When, long after the spirit of the constitution has departed, moderation is, at length, so far lost, by those in power that even the semblance of freedom is removed, and the forms, themselves, of the constitution discontinued; and so far from their petitions and remonstrances being regarded the agents who bear them are thrown into dungeons, and mercenary armies sent forth to force a new government upon them at the point of the bayonet: When in consequence of such acts of malfeasance and abdication, on the part of the government, anarchy prevails, and civil society is dissolved into its original elements. In such a crisis, the first law of nature, the right of seIf-preservation - the inherent and inalienable rights of the people to appeal to first principles, and take their political affairs into their own hands in extreme cases, enjoins it as a right towards themselves, and a sacred obligation to their posterity, to abolish such government, and create another in its stead, calculated to rescue them from impending dangers, and to secure their future welfare and happiness.

    Nations, as well as individuals, are amenable for their acts to the public opinion of mankind. A statement of a part of our grievances is therefore submitted to an impartial world, in justification of the hazardous but unavoidable step now taken, of severing our political connection with the Mexican people, and assuming an independent attitude among the nations of the earth.

    The Mexican government, by its colonization laws, invited and induced the Anglo-American population of Texas to colonize its wilderness under the pledged faith of a written constitution, that they should continue to enjoy that constitutional liberty and republican government to which they had been habituated in the land of their birth, the United States of America. In this expectation they have been cruelly disappointed, inasmuch as the Mexican nation has acquiesced in the late changes made in the government by General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, who having overturned the constitution of his country, now offers us the cruel alternative, either to abandon our homes, acquired by so many privations, or submit to the most intolerable of all tyranny, the combined despotism of the sword and the priesthood. It has sacrificed our welfare to the state of Coahuila, by which our interests have been continually depressed through a jealous and partial course of legislation, carried on at a far distant seat of government, by a hostile majority, in an unknown tongue, and this too, notwithstanding we have petitioned in the humblest terms for the establishment of a separate state government, and have, in accordance with the provisions of the national constitution, presented to the general Congress a republican constitution, which was, without just cause, contemptuously rejected.

    It incarcerated in a dungeon, for a long time, one of our citizens, for no other cause but a zealous endeavor to procure the acceptance of our constitution, and the establishment of a state government.

    It has failed and refused to secure, on a firm basis, the right of trial by jury, that palladium of civil liberty, and only safe guarantee for the life, liberty, and property of the citizen.

    It has failed to establish any public system of education, although possessed of almost boundless resources, (the public domain,) and although it is an axiom in political science, that unless a people are educated and enlightened, it is idle to expect the continuance of civil liberty, or the capacity for self government.

    It has suffered the military commandants, stationed among us, to exercise arbitrary acts of oppression and tyrany, thus trampling upon the most sacred rights of the citizens, and rendering the military superior to the civil power.

    It has dissolved, by force of arms, the state Congress of Coahuila and Texas, and obliged our representatives to fly for their lives from the seat of government, thus depriving us of the fundamental political right of representation.

    It has demanded the surrender of a number of our citizens, and ordered military detachments to seize and carry them into the Interior for trial, in contempt of the civil authorities, and in defiance of the laws and the constitution.

    It has made piratical attacks upon our commerce, by commissioning foreign desperadoes, and authorizing them to seize our vessels, and convey the property of our citizens to far distant ports for confiscation.

    It denies us the right of worshiping the Almighty according to the dictates of our own conscience, by the support of a national religion, calculated to promote the temporal interest of its human functionaries, rather than the glory of the true and living God.

    It has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defence, the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments.

    It has invaded our country both by sea and by land, with intent to lay waste our territory, and drive us from our homes; and has now a large mercenary army advancing, to carry on against us a war of extermination.

    It has, through its emissaries, incited the merciless savage, with the tomahawk and scalping knife, to massacre the inhabitants of our defenseless frontiers.

    It hath been, during the whole time of our connection with it, the contemptible sport and victim of successive military evolutions, and hath continually exhibited every characteristic of a weak, corrupt, and tyrranical government.

    These, and other grievances, were patiently borne by the people of Texas, until they reached that point at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue. We then took up arms in defence of the national constitution. We appealed to our Mexican brethren for assistance. Our appeal has been made in vain. Though months have elapsed, no sympathetic response has yet been heard from the Interior. We are, therefore, forced to the melancholy conclusion, that the Mexican people have acquiesced in the destruction of their liberty, and the substitution therfor of a military government; that they are unfit to be free, andincapable of self government.

    The necessity of self-preservation, therefore, now decrees our eternal political separation.

    We, therefore, the delegates with plenary powers of the people of Texas, in solemn convention assembled, appealing to a candid world for the necessities of our condition, do hereby resolve and declare, that our political connection with the Mexican nation has forever ended, and that the people of Texas do now constitute a free, Sovereign, and independent republic, and are fully invested with all the rights and attributes which properly belong to independent nations; and, conscious of the rectitude of our intentions,
    we fearlessly and confidently commit the issue to the decision of the Supreme arbiter of the destinies of nations.

    Richard Ellis, President of the Convention and Delegate from Red River

    James Collinsworth
    Edwin Waller
    Asa Brigham
    John S. D. Byrom
    Francis Ruis
    J. Antonio Navarro
    Jesse B. Badgett
    Wm D. Lacy
    William Menifee
    Jn. Fisher
    Matthew Caldwell
    William Motley
    Lorenzo de Zavala
    Stephen H. Everett
    George W. Smyth
    Elijah Stapp
    Claiborne West
    Wm. B. Scates
    M. B. Menard
    A. B. Hardin
    J. W. Burton
    Thos. J. Gazley
    R. M. Coleman
    Sterling C. Robertson
    Geo. C. Childress
    Bailey Hardeman
    Rob. Potter
    Thomas Jefferson Rusk
    Chas. S. Taylor
    John S. Roberts
    Robert Hamilton
    Collin McKinney
    Albert H. Latimer
    James Power
    Sam Houston
    David Thomas
    Edwd. Conrad
    Martin Parmer
    Edwin O. Legrand
    Stephen W. Blount
    Jms. Gaines
    Wm. Clark, Jr.
    Sydney O. Pennington
    Wm. Carrol Crawford
    Jno. Turner
    Benj. Briggs Goodrich
    G. W. Barnett
    James G. Swisher
    Jesse Grimes
    S. Rhoads Fisher
    John W. Moore
    John W. Bower
    Saml. A. Maverick (from Bejar)
    Sam P. Carson
    A. Briscoe
    J. B. Woods
    H. S. Kimble, Secretary

    Left at the Department of State May 28, 1836, by Mr. Wharton.

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  9. LiebenUndLeben

    LiebenUndLeben Banned

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    Congratulations to Tejas for such a noble ancestry from Hugh McGary Jr .
     
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  10. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    While it might feel that way,
    the crucial difference, as is pointed out in the Texas Declaration, is that this was a frontier, "wilderness," colony, not an established state in Mexico, proper. There is a substantial difference between a colonial revolt, and a Civil War.
    Mexico's mistake was to not settle the land with their own citizens. It seems odd, in fact, to me, that they should have so relied on foreigners, to settle their own land. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but it's hard to not say that they should have forseen this possibility, from the start. That is even more true, when these, largely American, settlers were known to be using slave labor to make their settlements profitable but Mexico, nonetheless, abolished slavery, including in its Texas colony.
     
  11. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    Spain owned both Mexico and Texas.

    Texas was mostly wilderness.

    Spain first invited Anglos to settle the Texas wilderness.

    1821 Mexico became independent from Spain.

    1836 Anglo Texas became independent from Mexico.

    Much of the northern part of what is now the State of Texas was never owned by Mexico.
    It passed from Spain to France and was part of Jefferson's "Louisiana Purchase" from Napoleon.

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  12. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    I was referring to the reasons Texans listed as to WHY they were declaring independence... because the government of Mexico had trashed its constitution and had become an evil draconian dictatorship that was confiscating liberty and property [including weapons.] When a draconian dictatorship begans confiscating weapons, the people should realize revolution is now or never! My avatar pic symbolizes the Mexican army's attempt to take a cannon from a Texas settlement. Those Texans stood up to oppose the Mexican army [and kept their cannon,] It was the first armed conflict of the Texas revolution.

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  13. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I got that part, loud & clear. I was just pointing out the current situation is not analogous enough to end up working out in the same manner.
    .

    .
     
  14. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    That was a time of noble men who valued freedom more than materialism, more than life.

    That was a time of heroes... like the honorable heroes at the Alamo who willingly fought to their deaths for the freedom of their people.


    Below is the famous letter Alamo Commander Col William Travis sent before the final battle:


    Commandancy of the The Alamo

    Bejar, Feby. 24th. 1836

    To the People of Texas & All Americans in the World

    Fellow Citizens & compatriots

    I am besieged, by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna. I have sustained a continual Bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion, otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword, if the fort is taken. I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender or retreat. Then, I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism & everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid, with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily & will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country - Victory or Death.

    William Barret Travis.

    Lt. Col.comdt.

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  15. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Colonel Travis and his compatriots were certainly heroic.
    But we are not without heroic figures, in our modern world. In the interest of FREEDOM, & FAIRNESS, for example, look at what risks have been hazarded & overcome by Alexei Navalny who had the indomitable courage-- I admit, more than I would likely demonstrate-- to return to Russia, as soon as he'd completed his recovery from Novichok poisoning. You can't say that isn't one brave S.O.B.

    And his bravery, is inspiring other Russians to push their own courage farther.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  16. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    Apparently you haven't read my posts about Navalny on the Russian topics.

    I think Navalny is Putin's controlled opposition.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ests-in-russia.584422/page-11#post-1072424306

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  17. mentor59

    mentor59 Well-Known Member

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    What kind of question is this?

    Good grief.
     
  18. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I loved the line from the Texas soldier to an officer when the Mexicans were trying to swim across the lake to escape the murderous fire from the Texans.

    The Texans lined up on the shore and gunned the Mexicans down like literal sitting ducks. An officer rushed forward and tried to stop the massacre. A Texas soldier told the officer that

    "Even if Jesus Christ himself came down and told me to stop killing Santa nistas, I wouldn't do it".
     
  19. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's kinda late for that. It's not like Mexico is going to take on the US Military.
     
  20. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    They don't need to take on the US military... they are winning the demographic war!

    The irony is... Hispanics are now conquering the USA without firing a shot.

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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  21. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    That only matters if you care about those types of demographics. :shrugs:
     
  22. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    It matters to me because I do care!

    .
     
  23. LiebenUndLeben

    LiebenUndLeben Banned

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    The Rich man in Mexico and in USA has looted Mexico many times. When USA had President Madera killed, it paved the way for what is happening now. 30 years ago, at the TiaJuana, Baja California border crossing, the Mexicans had built Trojan Horse about 20 feet tall with a head on each end. I suspect that the meaning was this: Yanquis can mess with Mexico, y Mexico can mess with Tierra de Yanquis. Que tu han hechada in años pasados, estamos puedos hacer ahora y en la futuro. Trans. What you have done in years past, we can do now and in the future.
    No Hay Problema in Tejas. Mexicanos aman Tejas. We gringos should read Isaiah 5, because we have brought forth much bitter fruit and YahvehShua has for this vineyard, we call USA, raised a flag for us to be overrun and looted. Only way out is for Americans to confess their wrongs and repent, and then our Savior Elohim can heal our land.
     
  24. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Everyone has their own version of history apparently. Isaiah and Elohim can go suck it btw. The bible, koran, etc etc etc was written by man, to control man. Its a load of bunk.
     
  25. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    A man does well to confess his own sins and fret over his own salvation...
     
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