The Alternative Ukraine Thread

As Putin replaces the previous media ‘monsters’ of Libya’s Gaddafi, Iraq’s Saddam and Syria’s Assad, it’s amusing to watch the manufactured hysteria in action once again. Every side has two stories and Russia certainly isn’t exempt from its own propaganda, but this time our own western media appears to have created a reality of its own.

Let’s briefly take a step back and try to dispel the effects of a one sided narrative.

The background

The Ukraine is a stepping stone exploited by NATO to advance towards Russia’s borders. Although it’s not in NATO, its armed forces and Neo-Nazi militias are both armed and trained by NATO.

Had Ukraine joined NATO and there’s a big possibility that was eventually going to happen, apart from Belarus, western armies would surround Russia. The last time that happened was in 1941 and it didn’t end well. Additionally, Russia would have lost its Sevastopol Naval Sea Base in the Crimea and the nearest NATO missile bases would be only 279 miles from Moscow. As history repeats itself and just as Kennedy said in 1962 when the Russians tried to set up missile bases in Cuba, that’s far enough! This time it was Putin’s turn to say, that’s far enough!

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Over confident after its successes in the Middle East against third rate military powers, no doubt NATO now realizes it pushed too far and not surprisingly is staying well clear of any direct contact with another nuclear power. Meanwhile, confidence is not high for those who believe a nuclear war would be winnable and Ukraine is not another Iraq or Syria to be easily over run and plundered.

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Ukraine is not a peaceful and independent country

Many of the former Eastern Blok countries have an appalling record of complicity in the holocaust, Ukraine is no exception. Fifty years of communism didn’t destroy those beliefs, it simply hid them and following the US backed Maidan coup against Yanukovych in 2014 (Victoria Nuland), the Neo-Nazis came out fighting believing NATO would protect them. Anyone still remember Zelensky’s shock when NATO dumped him and he finally realized he’d been used?

What happened in Ukraine mirrored the Middle East when the US removed the dictators who held it together and opened up a Pandora’s Box of sectarian civil wars involving the Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Meddling in Ukraine was no different and produced the same results of a civil war between the Ukrainian nationalists and ethnic Russians, with the US standing on the sidelines stirring the pot from a distance with a long spoon and cheering on its preferred side.

As for the hundreds of thousands flooding out of Ukraine, some to Russia but mostly to the west, the ones Zelensky said would fight to the last man for a poverty stricken country ruled by oligarchs, if you’re in Europe you’ll be meeting them soon. They’re the ones who will be replacing the former East Europeans who also headed west the first chance they got and those previously from the Middle East as the new minimum wage slave labour workforce.

Challenging the belief system

Do you believe everything in the western mass media about Ukraine? Let someone enlighten you. A short video and highly recommended to make you stop and think about the media manipulation involved.

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Didn’t you know this sort of thing has been going on? It’s why Lugansk and Donetsk fought back and why Russia entered the Dobass region in 2014 to stop further massacres. The attacks continued and despite repeated warnings which the west ignored, after eight years Putin finally put a stop to it.

https://www.theblogmire.com/odessa-one-year-on-a-day-of-infamy-a-day-of-shame/

In a blast from the past, before it became fashionable to call Neo-Nazis ‘freedom fighters’ is this what you’ve been cheering for?

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Did you fall for the fake images?

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How about ‘war crimes’ as the media accuse Russian forces of murdering 9,000 civilians and burying them in a mass grave hoping no one would notice. One independent Canadian journalist goes looking and found … nothing.

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The end game

Realistically, Ukraine has as much chance of winning against Russia as the Iraqi’s had of beating NATO back in 2003. Whatever your beliefs, it’s just not going to happen.

Leaving aside the GUNG-HO propaganda, in my opinion there will eventually be peace talks. Russia will keep the east along with the Crimea plus Donetsk and Lugansk, as a buffer zone against NATO and the European Union will get the west including Kyiv. Poland may well retake part of northern Ukraine as its historically lost lands (Lviv) under the disguise of peace keepers. After which we’ll all live happily ever after until the next ‘crisis’ arrives, this time with the Chinese as NATO now seeks to expand into the Asia-pacific region and Xi Jinping becomes the next ‘monster.’

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...risis-china/articleshow/90335103.cms?from=mdr

Of course, no amount of evidence will convince the believers. Yet are those the same people who also believed Al Gore’s ice caps would melt in 2014, or the recent flu would wipe out much of the planets population? Such is the power of the media.

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People on this forum got very angry towards anyone saying Russia was going to win this war back in February. I've not taken the temperature on that topic lately but I'm pretty sure that you still can't say the Azov Battalion is neo-Nazi. It was OK in 2021 and before but now the media calls them "ultra-nationalist" which is apparently OK as long as you're Ukrainian.

 

Like they say there are three sides to every story. The left side and the right side and somewhere in the middle the truth is to be found.

 

This is Bloomberg, so I think we can actually talk about it now.

Putin May Win in Ukraine, But the Real War Is Just Starting

It seems like it was only yesterday if you mentioned this you were a "Putin-lover."

 

Redundant thread topics suck

 

So does chiming in to add zero content but it doesn't seem to be a problem here....

 

But " ultra Maga" = American Nazi

 

Language changes to suit the occasion. Previously in other places, Islamists became ‘moderate rebels’ (depending on whose side they were on) and those fighting to stop invasions were labelled ‘terrorists.’ Presently, Ukraine Neo-Nazis become ‘nationalists’ and its POW’s are now ‘evacuees.’

Imagine Mexico doing a deal with Russia that allows Russian missile bases to be set up on the southern borders of the US. Can you imagine the response and quite rightly so.

Ukraine isn’t the main problem anymore. The danger is that NATO countries get involved as Lithuania is now currently doing and it escalates.

Google ‘Azov Battalion’ and look at the images. This isn’t nationalism, its national socialism.

 

Gotcha when you said "NATO successes in the Middle East" (OP).
NATO didn't have successes on the ME.
NATO didn't fight in the ME.
And western backed forces didn't do well either. Afghanistan chased off both Russian and Western forces and nothing changed anywhere else either. Iran, Iraq and Syria saw off western forces quite successfully.
And given that Ukraine has almost constantly been attacked by Russia, I have no doubt it asked for training. Who else should it have asked for training? Russia??
I see we have another member shilling for Russia here.
The last one didn't last long

 

The democratically elected décision makers in Ukraine are not the Azov Battalion.
And NATO won't get involved as long as Putin doesnt attack it.
You seem confused about how NATO works.

 

Google ‘Biletsky.’ Described as a ‘far-right’ politician he’s a former leader of the Neo-Nazi Azov battalion. It's not exactly a well kept secret. Read about the kind of people you’ve been manipulated into cheering for here. Sometimes it helps to get alternative information from other sources and not rely on the mainstream?

https://mronline.org/2022/05/10/andrei-biletsky-the-neo-nazi-father-of-azov/

Russia has not attacked NATO countries and neither has NATO attacked Russia. Both know where that will lead to. Yet NATO countries are already involved, they’re supplying arms to Ukraine and their military advisors are training the Ukraine army.

I know exactly how NATO works and after the fall of the USSR which is what it was set up to defend Europe from, so do the Afghans, Syrians, Iraqis and Libyans.

 

As I mentioned in the op, no matter how much the mass media is questioned and even contrary evidence presented, there will always be those who believe without question. As we now live in belief based societies, that’s not surprising.

What is happening now was foreseen years ago and why Russia spent heavily on new weapons technology and even had nuclear civilian drills in Moscow back in 2016. China followed with Xi Jinping warning the PLA to prepare for war last year. They both knew one day they’d have to confront an advancing NATO. Previously, it’s why both North Korea and Iran sought nuclear weapons because they also knew they were on NATO’s ‘hit list’ and are aware that nuclear armed countries don’t attack others with nuclear weapons.

We have to hope that the current Gung-Ho by the mass media is intended for public consumption only and doesn’t reflect the private attitude of those politicians and military commanders in the background. A bit like the promised ‘Fire and Fury’ promised over North Korea in 2017 that the media had the majority cheering for, but quickly fizzled out when China warned it would intervene.

It doesn’t matter how many nuclear weapons a country has. More is not better. We now live in such technologically advanced societies that even one small nuclear device on any western country (including the US), sends us back to the middle ages. I hope Mr. Biden realizes that even if the media and its believers don’t.

 

Of course.

Ultra-MAGA= Nazi

Actual Neo-Nazi's= Brave Heroes!

 

I repeat. The Azov Battalion is NOT the democratically elected government of Ukraine. What it is, is irrelevant.
I didn't say Russia has attacked A NATO country. The West is supplying help to Ukraine on request. I suggest you think about Russia's supplies to Assad not many years ago. Russia used that war to test some latest arms on a subjected population.
The Middle East countries were not involved in NATO. They are not members and do not come under NATO's umbrella.
NATO was set up to defend any member from attack from anywhere including China.
If you want to shilling for Russia at least know what you are talking about.
The last shilling for Rusdia didn't know how to use English properly and wrote using Slavic construction. You dont understand terms of référence.
I would have thought Russia could do better.

 

Good grief.
NATO is a defensive force!
It does not attack.
It ONLY défends its members.
It does not "advance". It has NEVER started à war or unitiated an attack.
If à country wants NATO's protection, it can apply to join.
Now Sir. Please explain why, Putin is so worried if he is not intending to attack himself?
Why is he so worried about a passive defensive force unless he wants to be aggressive?

 

Stop trying to wriggle Pixie, it’s embarrassing. You’ve read the evidence, you’ve seen the images and if you look at the vid in the op, you should already know what the Azov Battalion is and others like them.

No one has said they’re part of the government, they’re a militia that has now been incorporated into the Ukraine army to try to hide them. What has been said is that some Neo-Nazi members of the Ukraine government are involved with them, Zelensky supports them and NATO is arming them. You’re cheering on Neo-Nazis and you don’t even realize it?

As for China attacking anyone, the last time they came out of their backyard was centuries ago. They even constructed a ‘Great Wall’ to keep others out.

Of course NATO is supplying arms and training on request. It’s called being involved and yes, both Russia and the US supplied arms to various factions in Syria. That was also called being involved. The difference is that NATO is now supplying arms to a country which is directly fighting Russia. That’s now going beyond being a little bit involved.

I’m not a shill for anyone, I just don’t follow the indoctrinated line. I also don’t believe the world is going to end in global warming in 2028 (Greta Thunberg), or that we’re all going to die of flu.

Anyone who disagrees with the mass media becomes a shill or a bot to the believers. It’s nothing new and is a standard response for those having lost an argument.

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NATO doesn’t attack? What has it been doing in the Middle East for the past decade plus. Do you want to go and tell that to the Iraqis and Syrians? You didn’t know some of the NATO countries were involved in attacks on both countries?

It’s not about country’s wanting to join NATO. It’s about an aggressive NATO trying to surround a nuclear armed country with missile bases. Look at the image again in the op. That’s not defensive, that NATO creeping forward is offensive.

Come on Pixie, pull yourself together. If all you’re going to regurgitate is what you read in the media as fact it’s no wonder you haven’t a clue what’s going on. We’ll have to agree to disagree then and leave you to the mercy of Fox or CNN.

 

I am not going to give you any more breathing room to strew garbage .
For example NATO does not "creep".
Countries apply to join.
NATO DOES NOT ATTACK.
It has not been involved in the Middle East. That was all by national forces unsynchronised by NATO and masterminded by the USA and some of its allies. And I repeat because you clearly forgot that I said it was Russia which allowed the continuation of the carnage in Syria by using it as a practise firing range. So let's not talk about proxy wars.
See how propaganda distorts you mind into pretzel shapes.
You are less skilled than our previous shill who at least had a grasp on reality even if he couldn't speak English properly.
I enjoy an intelligent challenge.
So I will be ignoring you forthwith.

 

*Cough* Libya * cough*

 

Explaining Russia briefly before I go shopping and do important things.

This all began with Gorbachev who shortly before the USSR collapsed tried to introduce reforms (perestroika), too little too late.

Following the collapse of the USSR, in came Yeltsin in 1991 who started to privatize everything in sight and let in the western corporate capitalists and together with the Russian oligarchs they plundered Russia. In fact, you can still see the oligarchs wandering around the world trying to look for places to hide their billions. The decade long Yeltsin period is still known in Russia as ‘The bad years.’ Left to continue Russia would now look like a third-world banana republic.

In came Putin in 2000, threw many of them out and returned to traditional values and re-opened the Churches. No social liberalism and the west never forgave him.

Despite the media propaganda, Putin was and still remains extremely popular and why he gets such a high rating of votes. Having been to Russia (and China), what a majority of westerners can’t understand is that not all countries want a liberal society. Yes, there are a minority of liberals mostly from the new middle-class and intellectuals who are cheering for the west and they’re the ones you see in the western media, but generally it’s not the ordinary person in the street and they’re the vast majority.

The difference between Yeltsin and Putin reminds me of what happened after eight years of Obama when the ordinary man in the street said ‘No more of this’ to Clinton and voted in Trump. The same happened in Russia.

What is happening now was a long time coming and Russia has been preparing for it for years by slowly abandoning the dollar, buying up gold and updating its armed forces.

Where would NATO strike next after the Middle East? Now we know, but it was always going to involve Russia or China. Remember the “F**k the EU” quote by Victoria Nuland as the US and EU wrangled who would control Ukraine? I believe it was Nuland who later said it cost the US $5bn to organize the Ukraine Maidan revolution.

Following the overthrow of democratically elected Yanukovych, history repeated itself as NATO armed Ukraine’s Nazi militias and set them loose to do some ethnic cleansing of their own, just as they armed their preferred ‘freedom fighters’ in the Middle East. It’s why Russia intervened in the Donbass in 2014 in what is now Donetsk and Luhansk. The fighting didn’t stop and finally as Ukraine came closer to joining NATO, Russia finally acted.

I suppose the moral to this is that if you have a foreign policy of invading others, regime changes and organizing Arab springs and colour revolutions, you can’t very well throw up your hands in horror when eventually someone strikes back.

The only people who remain surprised by what happened are those who follow the western media and the media weren’t mentioning any of this. The problem with that is if you don’t have some background knowledge to go with it, the propaganda content you’re repeating is instantly visible because it mostly contradicts reality, which I explained in the op. That applies equally to Russian propaganda and so without some knowledge you’re back to partisan politics and debating that is like banging your head against the wall.

 

Just an update. The two British mercenaries, Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner have been sentenced to death by a court in Donetsk over a week ago. That’s because they were tried in an independent republic, not Russia which doesn’t have the death sentence.

The western media says they were part of a Ukraine military unit, but that’s unlikely. Mercenaries and volunteers are attached to the militias and it’s the militias that are incorporated into the Ukraine army. A bit of semantic side stepping by the Ukrainians and God knows what that pair were involved in when the media weren’t looking!

Aslin also admits to fighting as a mercenary previously in Syria and Pinner a 48-year old former waste management worker (garbage collector?) claims he was a soldier in the 36th Marine regiment. Even I raise my eyebrows at a 48-year old in an elite regiment.

As far as I’m aware, the Geneva Convention doesn’t recognize mercenaries as POW’s.

 

It's refreshing to see a person with actual knowledge on the subject they are speaking of join this forum.

I can tell that you speak from what you have learned personally in your own life.

So many of our "experts" here.... On this topic it's like you can almost see the cut and paste link from which they regurgitated what they have been fed.

We're Americans like to look at other countries and point our fingers and act like oh look at those victims of propaganda but what we don't even realize is that we have just as much propaganda as anyone else does.

We feel the way we feel because we've been told to feel that way, we think the way we think because we've been told to think this way.

It's nice to see another perspective to encourage us to think outside of our box.

I'm no expert on this Russian conflict but I do know enough to know that I don't know and probably a good majority of what I think I know is incorrect.

 

LOL at "waste Management worker".

I used to be an "automotive fluids maintenance specialist technician".....

This is just a fancy way of saying I worked at an oil change facility and I was the guy in the pit downstairs that you drove your car over and I was the dumbass that pulled your oil drain plug and changed your filter and looked around for any general problems!

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine...-appears-to-violate-geneva-conventions-184777

 

Geneva Convention Article 41.

“1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.”

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750057

What you read in my link is the opinion of a media source, not the law. Come on Pixie, you promised to ignore me. Keep your word? Otherwise I’d end up having to waste my time dispelling your opinions one after another and it would only upset you more.

 

You do not answer to what is in the article.
You completely ignore it.
Either you didn't readvit or deliberately diverted from it.
You see, the first thing you have to do is prive the legal status of tjose involved. That has nothing to do with your opinion.
What à lazy cop out. ISTM you have no answer.