The atomic bombs dropped in WW2 were unecessary.

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by Vegas giants, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Denying recorded history is futile.
     
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  2. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    You should stop doing that
     
  3. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    You cannot point to a single message post where I have denied recorded history.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  4. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Oh, they tried several times in 1945. The most well known one was when Togo directed the Ambassador to the Soviet Union to act as an intermediary in July 1945. The Ambassador met with Foreign Minister Molotov with the following communique:

    And we know this (and knew it then) because the message was intercepted and decrypted via MAGIC.

    https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/31.pdf

    The War Council had already decided in June that the war was lost, and the fate of Okinawa was sealed. Internally they had accepted defeat, but wanted to end the war on their own terms, not on those of the victors. Their planned proposal (if the Soviets had been receptive) would have been to relinquish the Philippines and make it an independent nation that was 100% demilitarized, the relinquishing of all captured islands, and if required leaving Manchuko and Chosin.

    But remember, these were not surrenders, these were armistices. And the Allied Powers would never have accepted those conditions (which the Soviets knew because they refused to act as messengers).
     
  6. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    "Japan asking the Soviets to talk to them about helping Japan to end the war on their own terms" doesn't count as presenting any offers to the US.

    Even though we knew of the contacts, there was no way for us to pursue it even if we had wanted to, as we did not want to alert Japan to the fact that we were reading these cables.
     
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  7. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Pursue war relentlessly and unforgivingly.
     
  8. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    These and other attempts were known, but not taken seriously. Because they would not have been accepted.

    They were attempting to strike a peace deal, but on their terms. But their terms were not acceptable. That is not the same that they were not attempted. Nobody forwarded them because they knew they would not have been accepted.

    No occupation or disarmament? No war crime trials? No requiring the government to stop being belligerent to others? No occupation to ensure that the war was not repeated a few decades later? Those were not acceptable terms to the US, UK and China even if they were presented. The part about turning over the Philippines and making it a demilitarized nation was a farce, especially since Japan had already lost those islands. They were also going to request the return of Okinawa, an island only recently conquered at the cost of many lives.

    And even if the US would have accepted, there is no way China would have. The US was part of the Cairo Declaration of 1943 (US, UK, Republic of China), where all of the Allied Powers agreed that either all parties would accept a peace deal, or it would be rejected. With the atrocities that Japan had dealt out to China over the past 8 years, China would never have accepted the Japanese offer even if presented. Let alone any of the other nations involved.

    Most people tend to forget that while the US was the major combatant in the Pacific Theater, it was not the only one. A continuing strong Japan would have continued to be a sword against the throat of both China and the UK as well. The British had only recently liberated Burma at the cost of many lives (over 70,000 killed or wounded), as well as the continuing threat a strong Japan would have posed to the rest of the region.
     
  9. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    If Japan had actually been asking that a peace offer be forwarded to the US, it would have been forwarded.

    Japan was not asking for any peace offers to be forwarded to us.

    Japan was merely trying to scheme with the Soviets to have the Soviets pressure us into accepting a bad peace deal. They hoped that if Japan agreed to become a Soviet base after the war, the Soviets would agree to do this.

    But it is true that we would never have accepted anything less than surrender on the terms laid out in the Potsdam Proclamation, had such an offer been presented to us.
     
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  10. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  11. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  12. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  13. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    The terms indicated in the 40 page memorandum MacArthur sent to FDR‘s desk before Yalta included precisely those conditions we ultimately excepted at the end of the war anyway. No, Fdr wanted blood and he would have it. Truman carried out his final bloody wish.
     
  14. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    The people of the USA wanted blood, and damn well deserved to have it. Really, it was not enough blood or enough cauterizing to death. But it did get a surrender.
     
  15. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    From women and children and starving old people? No, America is better than that; better than you.
     
  16. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Those overtures did not come from the Japanese government. They came from individuals who had no connection to the Japanese government.

    The US government understood that, but pursued the contacts anyway, in the hopes that one of them would evolve into an actual contact with the Japanese government.

    When the Japanese government learned of these attempted contacts by independent third parties, they repudiated the contacts and cut them off completely.

    I think in one case the Japanese government even ordered the person attempting to make one of these contacts to kill themselves, and they did.
     
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  17. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    This article is untrue. Japan made no attempt to reach out to the US for surrender talks until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

    This article is untrue. Japan did not speak to us about surrender until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

    Japan made no surrender offer until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.
     
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  18. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    I provide source after source after source supporting my position, and receive "nuh-uh!" in response? Hmmm...
     
  19. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Linking to untrue articles does not alter reality.

    Historians have access to Japanese war records. It is well known to historians that in the period when you are claiming they were making surrender offers, Japan was still trying to win the war.

    Even after the collapse of Nazi Germany, Japan's plans involved trying to convince the Soviets to switch sides and help them win the war in the Pacific.

    It was not until the US overran Okinawa (which Japan had believed to be impregnable) that Japan realized that they had no hope of winning and started trying to cut their losses and escape the war.

    But even then Japan only wanted to end the war in a draw instead of actually surrendering. They focused their efforts on trying to plot with the Soviets to help them end the war in a draw instead of presenting a surrender offer to the US.

    If you would like to read some actual history, I recommend "Japan's Decision to Surrender" by Robert J.C. Butow.

    "Japan's Longest Day" by The Pacific War Research Society is also good. It provides a Japanese perspective since it was written by Japanese historians.
     
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  20. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you've got nothing but "nuh-uh!"
     
  21. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    "Chicago Tribune, August 19,1945
    JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO

    Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals
    By Walter Trohan

    Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.

    Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman."


    https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p508_Hoffman.html
     
  22. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    "The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. ...

    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito."
     
  23. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    "President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."

    The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.

    This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur communication reached here. It was not published under the paper's established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code."
     
  24. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I cited two reputable history books, one of them written by Japanese historians.

    Holocaust denial websites are hardly a credible source.

    Too bad it never happened.

    If the Potsdam Proclamation was Japan's idea, why did Japan reject the Potsdam Proclamation?
     
  25. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    FDR had no interest in peace. He was going to see his new weapon completed, and he was going to have his bucket of blood no matter what. He was quick to dismiss MacArthur's report because it did not match his motivations. That the continuation of the war would mean more American lives as well was immaterial to the need to kill a bunch of what he did not consider equal human beings. He was sent to hell before he had a chance to see all the civilians killed that he wanted so badly, but Truman fulfilled his only purpose in being made president after FDR's all-too-late demise.
     

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