The Basics, Abortion is a Homicide, Face that Fact

Then we can move forward from there.
Lets look at the law shall we? Let's start with federal law.

https://www.congress.gov/108/plaws/publ212/PLAW-108publ212.pdf

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act was enacted into law in 2004. It clearly states that when a child in utero at any stage of development is intentionally killed, the perp is to be charged with homicide (the killing of a human being). Obviously one cannot be charged with killing a human being (person) unless the entity killed is a human being (person), so the clear meaning here is that a child in utero at any stage of development is a human being (person). Now I know there is a prosecution exception for mothers who want to wantonly kill their children through abortions, but let's just focus on the topic of whether or not a child in utero at any stage of development is a human being and also recognize that exception would not be needed unless abortion is indeed a homicide. This obviously shows federal law considers these children persons.

Now let's look at state laws:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

The 37 state laws listed on this link are for 37 states who have passed laws that recognize children in utero as persons, and provide for homicide charges in cases where people kill them intentionally. Many of these also use the verbiage " at any stage of development".


Then there is just the common scientific knowledge that the beginning of every homo sapien's life is fertilization.

So you see, there really isn't any reasonable argument to the contrary. SO let's just start with the recognition that abortions are homicides, then we can move forward with why you think they are justified or are not.

 

Doesn't matter what YOU call them, they're legal

 

OK, so you (finally) confess that you know they are homicides? Interesting that you are all smiles at a wanton homicide being legal.

 

Wanton? Is that any relation to wonton soup...love that.....

No, I don't "confess" anything........I posted clearly, " it doesn't matter what YOU call them, they are legal....

 

Nope, abortions are not homicides. But, you know that.

 

Yep completely legal homicides. But not wanton. Surgical. Lol

 

Yeah I thought you still didn't comprehend what the law said.

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That is an insufficient post. I posted specifics explaining why they are, your "but my notion in my head says no" is insufficient as a rebuttal. Thanks for playing but, YOU LOSE!

 

I love me some abortion homicide

 

LMAO. You keep telling yourself that.

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There aren't enough abortions happening, IMO.

 

Standing your ground is homicide by the same argument.

 

So is execution of those criminals who win the Big One.

Cause of Death is Homicide.

 

Doesn’t that fact that there needs to be special laws specifically including foetuses under this area of legislation actually demonstrates that they are a different and separate case? Without these specific pieces of legislation, killing an unborn foetus in itself probably wouldn’t be illegal at all.

It should also be pointed out that all of these laws specifically exclude abortion so they actually establish exactly the opposite of what you claim – abortion specifically isn’t homicide in any of these jurisdictions. Also, the federal law doesn’t actually declare killing and unborn child is homicide, only that it should be punished under the same legislation (again, specifically excluding abortion and also apparently specifically excluding any possibility of the death penalty, again suggesting a logical separation).

 

Of course it is, but standing your ground doesn't involve killing a defenseless child.

 

No it doesn't. It is merely clarification needed because of the SCOTUS' error in Roe V Wade. Besides, legality has nothing to do with the definition of homicide.

That is actually incorrect. The fact that they refuse to prosecute abortion homicides has nothing to do with the fact that abortions are homicides. Some homicides are allowed by law in our society. Right now, Abortion is one of those. Abortion is undeniably a homicide. All homicides are not illegal.

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So, in your mind, a defenseless child is the equal of a criminal guilty of a capital crime?

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Sadly I see ample evidence of that here.

 

Then why did you reference legislation in defence of your claim that abortion is homicide? And if legality has nothing to do with the definition of homicide, why should the definition of homicide and whether it includes abortion or not have anything to do with the legitimacy or legality of abortion?

 

The point being is that all homicides are not bad.....some are great!

 

People who want to excuse abortion commonly claim it is not a homicide. I said it is legal, I DID NOT say it should be legal. I just think the conversation should be honest, and those who claim abortion is not a homicide are being dishonest. Roe V wade used some cryptic and poorly thought out definition of "person" as its basis for allowing abortion, as if it were like removing a wart. That is simply erroneous. We now have other laws that recognize that a fetus is a human being and killing a child in utero (which would obviously be a person by any reasonable definition) is killing a human being (the definition of homicide).

Hopefully we will all agree that intentionally killing a child is society's business and not just the business of one individual woman. Nowhere else in our body of law do we allow someone to kill another human being at will, with no oversight.

My reason for creating this thread is to put the conversation back on an honest track.

 

Call it a homicide. Call it a ham sandwich. Nothing changes. Nothing. And we have the right to call it whatever we want. I'm going with medical procedure

 

Face the fact, abortion is legal.

Face the facts, an embryo/fetus is not considered a person

What the hell is with some of you, thinking you can just say something is fact and then say something so completely stupid and void of any facts.

The very same people have no problem going out killing animals, animals that actually think and feel, without any qualms, but go nuts about ending the development of a ball of cells with no functional brain, no concept of self, feeling no pain.

Oh, and the fact they don't care about kids and people once they are born. The ultimate hypocrites these anti abortion people are. This is evident by their complete disregards for innocent people killed by US bombs, by their disregard for refugees, how they thumb their nose at the poor and people who need help, how they want to remove all support these people have.

And they don't really care about ending abortion, they just want to force their religious morals on others. Because they are often almost always against teaching sex education, providing access to affordable healthcare, and many don't do a thing to help people who choose to have the baby, they don't adopt, they do nothing. They want to defund planned parenthood, who does so much to reduce the need for abortion.

Sorry, not buying this nonsense and phony moral superiority, many of you anti choice people are not good people. You can pretend as much as you can, clutch your bible as you judge and denigrate people, pray as hard as you like, preach your nonsense and hate to everybody, that doesn't change the fact you are not living like Jesus taught you to

 

Actually, the very existence of this law shows that a fetus would not normally be considered a human being - Congress was forced to give special legal standing to
a fetus that is terminated against the mother's wishes. If a fetus was considered a separate human being, there would have been no need for a law giving the fetus special legal status under extraordinary circumstance.

That is all.

 

I tried explaining that point also but it was ignored....as are many facts...

 

Nah, you have no such right if you want to be taken seriously. But it is a homicide and nothing you or anyone else says changes that fact.

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It absolutely does no such thing. The law itself clarifies that fetuses ARE HUMAN BEINGS and consequently persons as well. The fact that it specifically says it will not prosecute abortions shows that abortions are homicides, definitively. Furthermore, it applies to all violent crimes against children in utero at any stage of development, so the only thing narrow in scope about it is the exception to prosecution for mother's who are killers of their own.

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OK, I agree it is a homicide. Not a homicide that is the consequence of the killee's own actions though, like capital punishment is.

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You weren't ignored, you were successfully rebutted. It is a nonsensical notion.

 

It is also a medical procedure recognized by all mediCal professionals and insurance companies. I call it what it is. You can call it a tomato sandwich if you like. Lol

 

whatever, NEXT!

 

Not sure how this applies to my comments, but OK.