The Basics, Abortion is a Homicide, Face that Fact

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Whaler17, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    If the poster is not willing to use the quote feature then just ignore their posts.

    Eventually they will figure out that if they want a reply from another poster they need to use it.
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Active Member

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    In some parts of China there have been numerous reports of forced abortion, where the government authorities force women to get abortions, even when it's very late into their pregnancies.
    Do you think that's not murder?

    (Just to clarify, the women are held down against their will and injected with an abortion drug, and it's basically legal)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It's not murder if it's legal.

    But see what happens when women's right to their own body is taken away....just like China, Anti-Choicers want women controlled.
     
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  4. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its the law of the land. There are a lot of things I find unethical in China, but its not my business. Here in the US, we don't allow women to be forced against their will. We don't force abortion and we don't force them to carry full term. You can, however, convince some of them to carry full term and give the child up for adoption.
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Active Member

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    So you agree that if someone else kills a fetus in the womb, without the woman's permission, it's murder. But only because it's illegal.
     
  6. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If that was for me,

    Yes its murder.

    Just to make it clear, I am against abortion. Being a reasonable person, I would never support laws that would force my beliefs into others, and know that laws of this nature are ineffective. The real issue with unwanted pregnancies is the "Unwanted" part.

    If a woman did not want the pain and physical damage from pregnancy, laws would only create a demand for medical tourism and black market abortions. Sure, you may catch a few and send them to prison, but what have you really done for society?

    The others who do not want the emotional and financial commitment of raising a child can be persuaded to give the child up for adoption. This is where the "WANTED" part of the discussion comes in. This requires a parent "wanting" the child. Unfortunately, there are thousands of children that will never know what it is like to be "wanted" Many will end up in prison.

    Just curious, why does your concern for the lives and welfare of these children end once they are born?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Active Member

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    Well it doesn't. But my concern over abortion extends beyond only the welfare of the fetus, it also has to do with justice.
    If I can draw an analogy to help you understand here, it's like the difference between someone not giving a homeless pan handler food and someone lighting a homeless person's cardboard box on fire while they're sleeping in it. It's true, in a way, that the end results are sort of the same thing, as you argue, but the acts are still not the same thing.

    Is there some level of hypocrisy somewhere? Maybe, but it's not all hypocrisy. It is possible to advocate against someone being KILLED without advocating for saving someone's life.

    Now, I suppose you could argue that the woman is simply choosing to withhold her sustenance from the fetus, and so is not directly killing it. But that argument would kind of be like two people stranded on a deserted island, one has all the food and he's not going to share. There's no way the other person can survive without the food, so the first person decides he might as well kill the other person, bashing a coconut on his skull. Bashing a coconut on his skull has the same end effect that not sharing his food does. According to the logic being used here, since he has the right to not share his food, and since the result of that is the same as using the coconut as a tool of killing, he has a right to kill.

    Now one doesn't quite imply the other, now does it?
    In the same way, the woman's supposed right not to have to nourish a baby in her womb doesn't quite implicate the right to have an abortion, now does it?
    I don't know, this is all looking like a huge moral grey zone when you try to zoom in on things and actually follow a chain of logic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It's only your "moral grey zone"....others decide for themselves.

    Your coconuts comparisons are just silly. For one, the pregnant woman does not withhold sustenance, she just has the fetus killed. There is no other way to stop the fetus from using her body to sustain it's life....something no person has the right to do.
     
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  9. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Technically it is assault!

    Only if the women dies as a result of the assault would there be murder charges for killing the woman. Some states do allow a second murder charge for the fetus but only if the murder charge against the woman is proven in court.
     
  10. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The "moral grey zone" is because no one else has the right to dictate and impose their morality onothers.

    In essence if a woman already has several children that she can just barely afford to feed, clothe and house is it "moral" to force her to give birth to yet another child thereby depriving the existing children of food, clothing and housing.

    So that is her decision and not yours or mine. She deals with her own situation and morality without anyone else dictating and/or imposing their morality on her.
     
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  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    Your morality and opinion have no bearing on this situation whatsoever beyond the confines of your mind. You obviously believe a fetus is a person and must be treated as such, that is the ONLY reason to take the positions you do. I and many others (including the woman who actually matters) do not agree with your assumptions. The "Grey Area" you define is self imposed and arbitrary in this as it involves personal choice being imposed upon another person.
    Basically your opinion does not extend beyond yourself where physical reality comes into play, we as a society do not allow any one individual to impose themselves on another or control them....we call this slavery.
     
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  12. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since you brought the homeless into the conversation, why not claim to care about them as well by suggesting others house them? I have such a high level of concern, I am willing to let them move in with you. What would you tell me about my level of caring?

    Heres the problem. We already have thousands of unwanted children that will never see the inside of a loving home and will never know what it feels like to be wanted. Raising them in the system is profitable for the prisons, but bad for them and the rest of society. You would add millions to that number.

    Saying "Abortion is bad" is easy. How do you propose we raise these additional children when there are not enough loving parents for the ones we have?

    Have you thought this through and if so, what is your plan?
     

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