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The Bible. A problem with interpretation.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by robini123, Nov 21, 2019.

Page 4 of 28
  1. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    You asked, and I told you. Personally, if I had a video you'd probably say it was faked, if I showed you in person you'd claim it was some kind of trick. Your mind is made up, why ask questions?
     
    it's just me, Dec 5, 2019
    #76
  2. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And there it is... what I predicted would be the answer to the miracle of a Created Universe..
     
    ToddWB, Dec 5, 2019
    #77
  3. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    One problem with this idea of interpretation:

    "Ye knowe ek that in forme of speeche is chaunge
    Withinne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
    That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
    Us thinketh hem, and yet thei spake hem so,
    And spedde as wel in love as men now do;
    Ek for to wynnen love in sondry ages,
    In sondry londes, sondry ben usages." --Chaucer
    ​
    Another problem is that word meanings can change over time:
    1. Nice: This word used to mean “silly, foolish, simple.” Far from the compliment it is today!
    2. Silly: Meanwhile, silly went in the opposite direction: in its earliest uses, it referred to things worthy or blessed; from there it came to refer to the weak and vulnerable, and more recently to those who are foolish.
    3. Awful: Awful things used to be “worthy of awe” for a variety of reasons, which is how we get expressions like “the awful majesty of God.”
    4. Fizzle: The verb fizzle once referred to the act of producing quiet flatulence (think “SBD”); American college slang flipped the word’s meaning to refer to failing at things.
    5. Wench: A shortened form of the Old English word wenchel (which referred to children of either sex), the word wench used to mean “female child” before it came to be used to refer to female servants — and more pejoratively to wanton women.
    6. Fathom: It can be hard to fathom how this verb moved from meaning “to encircle with one’s arms” to meaning “to understand after much thought.” Here’s the scoop: One’s outstretched arms can be used as a measurement (a fathom), and once you have fathoms, you can use a fathom line to measure the depth of water. Think metaphorically and fathoming becomes about getting to the bottom of things.
    7. Clue: Centuries ago, a clue (or clew) was a ball of yarn. Think about threading your way through a maze and you’ll see how we got from yarn to key bits of evidence that help us solve things.
    8. Myriad: If you had a myriad of things 600 years ago, it meant that you specifically had 10,000 of them — not just a lot.
    9. Naughty: Long ago, if you were naughty, you had naught or nothing. Then it came to mean evil or immoral, and now you are just badly behaved.
    10. Eerie: Before the word eerie described things that inspire fear, it used to describe people feeling fear — as in one could feel faint and eerie.
    11. Spinster: As it sounds, spinsters used to be women who spun. It referred to a legal occupation before it came to mean “unmarried woman” — and often not in the most positive ways, as opposed to a bachelor …
    12. Bachelor: A bachelor was a young knight before the word came to refer to someone who had achieved the lowest rank at a university — and it lives on in that meaning in today’s B.A. and B.S degrees. It’s been used for unmarried men since Chaucer’s day.
    13. Flirt: Some 500 years ago, flirting was flicking something away or flicking open a fan or otherwise making a brisk or jerky motion. Now it involves playing with people’s emotions (sometimes it may feel like your heart is getting jerked around in the process).
    14. Guy: This word is an eponym. It comes from the name of Guy Fawkes, who was part of a failed attempt to blow up Parliament in 1605. Folks used to burn his effigy, a “Guy Fawkes” or a “guy,” and from there it came to refer to a frightful figure. In the U.S., it has come to refer to men in general.
    15. Hussy: Believe it or not, hussy comes from the word housewife (with several sound changes, clearly) and used to refer to the mistress of a household, not the disreputable woman it refers to today.
    16. Egregious: It used to be possible for it to be a good thing to be egregious: it meant you were distinguished or eminent. But in the end, the negative meaning of the word won out, and now it means that someone or something is conspicuously bad — not conspicuously good.
    17. Quell: Quelling something or someone used to mean killing it, not just subduing it.
    18. Divest: 300 years ago, divesting could involve undressing as well as depriving others of their rights or possessions. It has only recently come to refer to selling off investments.
    19. Senile: Senile used to refer simply to anything related to old age, so you could have senile maturity. Now it refers specifically to those suffering from senile dementia.
    20. Meat: Have you ever wondered about the expression “meat and drink”? It comes from an older meaning of the word meat that refers to food in general — solid food of a variety of kinds (not just animal flesh), as opposed to drink.
    ​
    We really should keep in mind that English is a bastard language that's come to us in bits and pieces from most other languages. Our usage of "foreign" words is not always the same as their original meanings and intentions. We are constantly appropriating words and changing their meanings.

    Languages are full of idiomatic phrasings with meaning that is limited to specific cultures. Idiomatic phrasings are so common that we often don't realize we're using them, yet for English language learners they can be a brick wall in the attempt to properly understanding the intent.

    And, of course, the one thing that stands out in this thread is the confusion created by the idea of morality being universal. Some understand that to mean all culture have a sense of morality. Others understand that to mean that morals are the same across cultures. People read the same words and interpret them differently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Adfundum, Dec 5, 2019
    #78
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  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I ask questions because I want to know new things, everything I can. If something new comes up I tend to evaluate and research it...experiment if I can in order to verify validity. Indeed in this case I suppose my mind is made up at this point as there in nothing to evaluate beyond ancient manuscript and opinion, and clearly nothing to experiment on beyond the obvious "Prayer test" which has produced a negative. Evaluation of the documentation has also done the complete opposite of verification due to the impossibilities the stories contain. I also have the vast number of competing "God" entities that instantly indicate there cannot be just one as proclaimed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    tecoyah, Dec 5, 2019
    #79
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  5. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Golly....sorry to use logical thought and the need for reality based concept.
     
    tecoyah, Dec 5, 2019
    #80
  6. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    Forget the "many god stories" thing, we are only talking about the one you brought up. Now, about "scientific method" - in addition to having been a priest I was also a chemist for 41 years. Even with all that experience I saw things weekly that I didn't have an answer for. Science doesn't have all the answers. Scientists don't have all the answers. Sure, if you spend all of your time looking for one thing you may find it. Or you may not. I'm not stupid or superstitious, I have an official IQ that places me in the 99th percentile.

    The point is: you don't know everything. You're not going to know everything.
     
    it's just me, Dec 5, 2019
    #81
  7. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is pretty much what I have stated...and I never called you stupid or care in the slightest about I.Q.
     
    tecoyah, Dec 5, 2019
    #82
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  8. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Is the irony of this statement lost on you?
     
    yardmeat, Dec 5, 2019
    #83
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  9. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have never done such... not to my satisfaction.. the only reason you are not on my longlist of ignore is that I need at least one of you to see that nothing has changed in your mantra. Ignoring the statistical probabilities and the logic necessary to interpret them implies the exact opposite of what you state here.. don't worry.. one of my models is taking whatever someone to the left says and considering, in all likelihood, the opposite is true.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    ToddWB, Dec 5, 2019
    #84
  10. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    PLEASE add me to your extensive ignore list....likely a nice group of thinking people.
     
    tecoyah, Dec 5, 2019
    #85
  11. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Improbabilities =/= evidence of intervention
     
    yardmeat, Dec 5, 2019
    #86
  12. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know, everything is ironic to you.
     
    it's just me, Dec 5, 2019
    #87
  13. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    That is the typical atheist dodge. Science is the final authority when you agree with it but when you do not agree then no one knows anything.

    Here is a little tidbit for ya: science is not qualified to answer the question of the existence of God.
     
    doombug, Dec 6, 2019
    #88
  14. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    That was to pre-empt any suggestion you might make about me being backwards - I get that a lot from atheists. Sorry if I misjudged you.
     
    it's just me, Dec 6, 2019
    #89
  15. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nor does it try...Science is the "Final Authority" on things it has proven but admits it does not know what it does not know...….Theists should take a lesson from that.
     
    tecoyah, Dec 6, 2019
    #90
  16. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Since it seems all the theists present here agree that the bible needs "interpretation" they would also seem to be admitting that it is false. If it were true it would not need to be interpreted and its truth would be beyond argument. This raises the question, why Is this not so?
     
    Arjay51, Dec 6, 2019
    #91
  17. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    How did you come to that conclusion? Is the Constitution false, it needs to be interpreted. That was a real logical backflip on your part. Show how documents that require interpretation are false. Documents written in foreign languages require interpretation, are they false?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
    it's just me, Dec 6, 2019
    #92
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  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I'm referencing the fact that you have already made up your mind about he poster in question . . . and your accusation that he has already made up his mind and won't accept evidence is purely based on the fact that you have already made up your mind. There are a lot of things I don't find ironic. That hypocrisy, however, I find ironic.
     
    yardmeat, Dec 6, 2019
    #93
  19. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Documents in a foreign language need translation, not interpretation.

    Who even mentioned the Constitution? You did. It merely needs to be followed, not interpreted to fit the modern agenda of those who dismiss it.

    What is false is your reasoning(?) if one can even call it that.

    Don't hurt yourself trying to justify your false and abhorrent conclusions, just try to accept what is and live with it. Trying to make it fit your own wants is just dishonest partisanship.
     
    Arjay51, Dec 6, 2019
    #94
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some Indian religious texts are seemingly contradictory, and often intentionally so.
    One might ask how can two things that appear to directly conflict with each other both be true, but the answer has to do with context.

    Any statement that is going to be easily understood is, in reality going to be simplified for that particular situation.
    I could write a statement that was entirely technically accurate, but then it would be unwieldy, very long, impractical, and it would be hard for anyone to understand what my point was.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
    kazenatsu, Dec 6, 2019
    #95
  21. william kurps

    william kurps Banned

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    One becomes an atheist because there prayers of winning a million dollars was not answered

    One becomes an atheist because a loved one died in there arms..

    They dont realize they where kept alive by god/ jesus christ/ mother Mary
     
    william kurps, Dec 6, 2019
    #96
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome to join us back in reality any time.
     
    yardmeat, Dec 6, 2019
    #97
  23. william kurps

    william kurps Banned

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    How so I know the facts
     
    william kurps, Dec 6, 2019
    #98
  24. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Your assumption that you know the motives of all atheists and your willingness to dismiss their own accounts of their own positions and reasons for them demonstrate otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
    yardmeat, Dec 6, 2019
    #99
  25. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I commented on the idea of interpretation in post #78. I used that as an example of how language changes over time, making it necessary to interpret the way things were said back then so they make sense today. Chaucer's English was Middle English and the language of the commoners. Since it's in English, we don't need to translate. So, what is he saying?

    The point is that interpretation is part of that translation.
     
    Adfundum, Dec 6, 2019
    #100
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