The Bible

Then what did you mean by this:

Does "avoid doing negative things" not equal "not doing bad thing?"

 

In what way do you think atheists would "care" about what those who believe in God say?

 

But not BECAUSE it was Jesus that taught the teachings, right?

When did I say that they apply JUST to Christians?

Why is this a problem?

 

While there are many hypocritical Christians out there, you seem to have an issue with any person who makes it known he/she is Christian. Ive seen some people (christians or non) act arrogant and awful in one situation, then go far above the call for selflessness in another...only God can judge the heart.
You dont have to believe every single thing in the Bible to be saved but you do have to believe in Jesus Christ. Cherry picking his words to attack professing Christians isnt the whole picture.

...We cant stand before a Holy God on our own merits.

 

Do you have a copy of the Bible in any print version?

Can you produce a copy of any Bible written before the 680s-690s? You don't have to have possession of it yourself, you just have to say where it is for examination. Some idiots think that crap like this is the Bible = http://i.pinimg.com/736x/5a/1e/68/5a1e681eac87e1f10c233076432fc001.jpg

 

As it says in James 2:20 (NTE) = "Do you want to know, you stupid person, that faith without works is lifeless?"

 

You have comprehension issues.

Saying "believers avoid doing bad things" (something I did not say) - is not the same as saying one should avoid doing bad things.

Now that you have completely derailed the topic on the basis of silliness - time to get back to your contradiction.

You said that doing works (which = following the teachings of Jesus in Matt which is works; works being both doing good things and avoiding bad things) is "the will of the Father"

Works is then how one gets into heaven according to Jesus - at least the Jesus of Matt.

Then you claimed that works were not required - that "faith alone" is sufficient.

Do you now understand your contradiction ?

 

This is idiocy on steroids. Numerous people have explained this to you numerous times and it is not complicated in the slightest.

People who believe in God sometimes say interesting things that others - including atheists - want to hear.

 

1) at the end of the day neither you nor I know what gets one into heaven
2) Paul is not Jesus and Paul did not know Jesus and further - Paul contradicts Jesus
3) James 2 (James is someone who did know Jesus) says those who believe they are saved by "faith alone" are foolish - stating - even Demons believe in God and then giving the example of Rehab the Prostitute who was put right with God on the basis of works.

4) The Jesus of Matt - as per the Sermon on the mount in which one of the major themes is how one gets into heaven - says that the will of the Father is to follow the Teachings of Jesus = works works and more works - not a single mention of faith in the sacrifice or faith in general as a requirement. "Only those that do the will of the Father" = works.

Jesus goes further in saying "Not all those who call Lord Lord (have faith) will get into heaven - "only those that do the will of the Father". He then goes on to discuss those who prophesy and cast out demons in his name and says these folks will not make it .

He then goes on to clarify further - for those who did not get it the first time saying that it is not the hearers of the word (his teachings) that gets one through the pearly gates but the doing. Matt 7 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=NIV

It is interesting how James 2 uses the same word "Foolish" - to describe those who think that "faith alone" gets one into heaven.

Matt 25 - Sheep and Goats parable - Jesus is depicted as Judging the masses. Those who do not know Jesus but do good works get into heaven .. those who know Jesus but do not do good works do not.

5) What is preposterous nonsense is you making defacto claims about how one gets into heaven - claims made not on the basis of having a good understanding of the Bible but on the basis ingested man made dogma. This is especially preposterous given the majority of Christianity does not accept "Sola Fide".

 

This is made up gibberish. Never have I stated nor inferred that I have a problem with Christians. I was raised in a very religious home- Lutheran if you must know - and try to follow the teachings of Jesus.

What gets my goat is Christians who make defacto claims in relation to Christianity (who God is - getting into heaven and so on) but do not have a clue what the teachings of Jesus are.

Like what you do below.

According to the Jesus of Matt 5-7 - Sermon on the mount - an entire sermon (vs one sentence that has numerous interpretations) in which the main theme is what one must to do get into heaven - one is saved through works. Not once does Jesus say faith or belief in the personage of Jesus is required. It is belief in the teachings of Jesus and putting those words into practice that one gets through the pearly gates.

You are the one doing the cherry picking like all those who try to justify "Sola Fide" That and ignoring or avoiding the teachings of Jesus that contradict with ingested man made dogma.

I have never claimed that one has to believe every single thing in the Bible - nor do I claim that one has to do all of the good works Jesus proscribes or avoid doing all the things he warns against.

Which brings me to another thing that gets my goat - Christians who put words in the mouth of Jesus by claiming that Jesus/ the warns against things - that Jesus never warned against. Fundamentalists claim that one should not use alcohol for example. Some sects forbid dancing. Premarital Sex is another and there are numerous other things.

You have no clue whether or not you can stand before God on your own merits (so quit pretending otherwise) and certainly the Jesus of Matt does not say this. In fact he says the opposite in Matt 25 - sheep and goats parable where Jesus is depicted as Judging the masses. Those who do not know Jesus but do good works get in. Those who know Jesus but do not do good works do not get in.

 

Can you produce a live dinosaur? How do we know about dinosaurs?

If you say "bones and bone fragments", you win. Because this is exactly how we know.

How de we know about various ancient Bibles, in book or scroll form? Manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts, together with numerous mentions of early Bibles in Church Fathers' and pagan writings. That's a lot more than any testimony we have about dinosaurs.

Here's a helpful link:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

And this:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Irenaeus

How could a canonical version of the Bible be established in the second century, if the Bible was invented several centuries later? How could dinosaur bones be found, if there were no dinosaurs?

 

You said, "it is just as much about not doing bad things." How is that not the same as "avoid doing bad things?"

Perhaps you can explain what you meant by this:

It is not possible to be saved through faith and NOT DO good works! So doing the will of the Father comes about from having faith!

 

What I mean is, they wouldn't say that they care about it because they think it makes a different to their lives in any way.

 

I agree Christians have no monopoly on good deeds, but I don't agree with the rest.

I don't see how can one believe in Jesus but ignore his deeds. He said "I am the way". Didn't he come to show us his way? Doesn't this way include Jesus' deeds?

Good deeds, I think, are not a way to get into heaven, but a way to get the heaven in your heart. This is what Jesus teaches, after all.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=KJV

How can divinity dwell in someone who doesn't follow Jesus' way?

I'm confused, really. What does faith mean to you?

 

It is the same - unless of course you add the rest of the sentence. This is like talking to a 10 yr old .. how old are you ?

So you agree that works are required in order to get into heaven. Glad was sorted that out.

 

Suppose a Christian is talking about the technical analysis of a stock - and the atheist is interested in that stock. Obviously the atheist is then interested in what the Christian has to say.

 

No. Not because it was Jesus.the Jewish preacher. But because it is good teaching. I've already shown you that much of what Jesus taught was taken from the Old Testament.

You can't .see the problem? Dear me.

Christianity and Mohammed have each taken the OT and adapted it into beliefs for themselves. Christianity has taken rituals from Judaism and uses them in a different context. It has adapted Jewish prophecies to wrongly proclaim Jesus as divine. Judaism took beliefs from Ugarit (Yahweh - a son of El), rituals and objects from Egyptian beliefs. Beliefs from Zoroaster (Monotheism) and much of Leviticus from contemporary civilisations. Christianity accepts the OT God (Yahweh) and Jesus (his Son) That makes Jesus the grandson of El. Oooops.
I could go back to all the different worldwide stories of creation.

 

You are assuming that your fragments and early writings are true. We know for a fact that people lie in order to push their own agendas. One thing you will never see is a clearly legible image of the supposed early writings. You will never see the complete document and you will never see a real Bible from that time period because it didn't exist then.

 

You just don't want to accept that there were possibly full scriptures which deteriorated over time. Scholars accept these scraps as from larger documents. If you don't want to that's your problem.
What happened to the earlier Old Latin Vulgate? Can you show this? Is there an extant copy - or even manuscript scrap - ot it.?

 

Which is different to Christians, who accept the teaching because they are from Jesus

Which I don't have a problem with. The OT is not irrelevant! You can't have the NEW without the OLD!

So they took cultural influences from former religions. So what? And as for Christianity taking influences from Judaism, JESUS WAS A JEW!

Which would be pointless.

 

Sure, but what does this have to do with the Christian's faith?

 

Perhaps you can just explain what you meant by this:

Again, NOT required. Do you suppose that Jesus would say that someone who rejects God but does good works is doing the will of the Father?

 

The Codex Amiatinus is the original Bible. Three master copies were produced. All other Bibles are translations of these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

"Two of the Bibles produced were placed, one each, in the twin churches in Wearmouth and Jarrow. One of them is now completely lost, whilst only fragments of the other are left, and are kept in the British Library today."
https://www.ancient-origins.net/art...were-used-create-monumental-manuscript-021745

"The only full-sized replica in the world of a Bible created more than 1,000 years ago is returning to its home in South Tyneside.

The oldest complete Latin Bible in existence, it was rare to make a single volume Bible as they usually contained a small number of books like the four gospels.

Three copies of the Codex Amiatinus were produced in Latin calligraphy at the monastery.

Two stayed at Wearmouth and Jarrow and in AD716, the third left for Rome with Abbot Ceolfrith and his followers where it was intended to be given to Pope Gregory II as a gift.

Abbot Ceolfrith died on route in France, but his dream was fulfilled and the book was taken by some of his followers on to Rome.

Some years later, it was rediscovered in the monastery of San Salvatore in Italy before being moved to the Laurential Library in Florence where it can be found today."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-27372773

*** Note that the replica is in South Tyneside and that the original is in the Laurential Library in Florence ***

Now, can you produce an earlier, complete Bible than the one written in England in the 680s-690s?

 

Some of the good works that people did in the Old Testament was to invade other peoples' lands to to kill all of them including all of their animals and burning their towns down. The God character got pissed when people showed just a little bit of mercy. Supposed the God character told you that if you wanted to get into heaven that you had to kill everyone in a large city, such as London or Havana or Mecca, and had to burn it down to the ground. Would you do it in order to get to heaven?

 

Stocks have nothing to do with the Christians faith. You did not say the Christian was talking about his/her Faith. What asked was "Why would an Atheist listen to anything a Christian has to say.