The Bible

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now you are just blubbering nonsense in disingenuous denial or just intent on posting idiotic nonsense.

    1) not all Christians have to believe in a particular dogma for it to be Christian Dogma. For example - Sola Fide is "Christian Dogma" - yet the majority of Christianity does not accept Sola fide. Sola fide = "salvation by faith alone" what is also part of dogma is that those who do not believe will not be saved.

    If you can not figure out that babies are part of "those who do not believe" I can not dumb it down any further for you.

    2) You then say "what does this have to do with slaughtering" after I posted a direct quote from the Bible where God commands that an entire town be slaughtered. I don't know Chris .. what does slaughtering a whole town - for the sins of the parents - have to do with slaughtering ? Disingenuous ignorance or idiocy.

    3) God says - children are not to be killed for the sins of the fathers - then orders children do be killed for the sins of their fathers.

    You then ask "where is the contradiction". Disingenuous ignorance or idiocy.

    The rest of your post is similarly idiotic such that it is pointless to continue :) Sorry but, way to painful - the level of stupidity is way too high.
     
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So then why did you mention the majority? Why is it significant that the majority reject Sola Fide?
     
  3. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are very schooled in anti Christianity however I'll just take the time to point out one little lie. Bethlehem was not Jesus'home and Mathew only observes he was born there due to the census being taken.
     
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  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is this more disingenuous idiocy or are you really this out of your depth ? How old are you ? I apologize if you are like 12 or something.

    It is not my fault that the majority of Christianity rejects Sola Fide. Why this is significant is because it shows that a whole lot of Christianity does not think that this is what Jesus taught.

    This does not make Sola Fide wrong - however there are a significant number of Christians who believe it is wrong. Including the disciples.

    I have never claimed that Sola Fide is wrong either. How do I know what God thinks ?

    All I have stated that this doctrine contradicts the teachings of the Jesus of Mark/Matt. This is just stating a fact.
     
  5. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    :roflol: Nice dodge on Matthew 9:22; Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 8:48; 17:19; 18:42! VERY convenient!
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Can you source a statistic that gives the numbers on this?

    Sola Fide does not mean that works are not good.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are the one dodging.. you completely ignored everything in my post.

    Mark 5:34 - He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”
    Jesus is even talking about getting into heaven in this passage.

    Matt 9:22 - is the same passage as above copied from Mark - good grief this gets dumber by the post.

    Luke 8:48 is the same passage as above copied from Mark or Matt - Holy Carp this is nonsensical.

    The other two passages you give from Luke are just as dumb - Jesus is not talking about getting into heaven in either passage.
     
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) Orthodox and Catholic outnumber Protestant. Even if this were not the case it would still be a significant number of Christians so this is another exercise in idiocy.

    2) I never said that Sola Fide meant that works were not good. What I said was that the teachings of Jesus contradict the "salvation by faith alone" doctrine - as do the teachings of James (and by inference the disciples)
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What IF protestants were the majority?

    Yes but Sola Fide does not say that works are meaningless and we can all be horrible people. So no contradiction exists. A contradiction would ONLY exist, if Jesus taught that works alone are sufficient for salvation. By the way, I'm still waiting for your response on what Jesus meant by "your faith has made you well" in Matthew 9:22; Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 8:48; 17:19; 18:42. That is, if you are even REMOTELY capable!
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) aside from the fact that I answered this in the post you are responding to - what if the moon were made of green cheese.

    2) It matters not what Jesus meant. What he did not say was "faith alone gets one into heaven" - nor does he imply it. Have you never heard of "faith healing" or the power of positive thinking ?

    The contradiction is because Jesus states that works are required to get into heaven - as proven to you a gazillion times already.
     
  11. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So you can dodge, but I cannot? How am I the "ONE" dodging? Don't you have to be honest and at least say that we are BOTH dodging?

    Did I say that they are all unique? The fact that they are repeated demonstrates significance.

    But he IS talking about getting into heaven in the sermon on the mount every single time he mentions a good work? Surely you can't be serious!
     
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Based on what exactly?
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Even if it was like 80% protestant?

    Correct. And what he also did not not say was, "WORKS alone gets one into heaven." Do you acknowledge that?

    Yes I have. Relevance?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So can any single Christian's belief can be considered 'Christian Dogma?' If not, where do you draw the line?

    A sensible line exists between a child's mind and an adults mind. The two obviously have an entirely different capacity of understanding. Therefore, "THOSE" doesn't necessarily have to mean every single person. I don't think there are many Christians that believe that God would condemn a baby to eternal damnation.

    I didn't ask "what does this have to do with slaughtering" in regards to Exodus 20:5-6 and Deuteronomy 13:12-15, only Deuteronomy 24:16, which has nothing to do with slaughtering. You didn't make it clear that you were using it to say that God said that children shall not be put to death for their fathers, which I now assume is what you were doing. I thought that you were using it to say that "each is to die for his own sin" is slaughtering.

    Yes, it is difficult stuff to deal with I admit. I note though, that Exodus 20:5-6 and Deuteronomy 13:12-15 are to do with idolatry, an extremely treacherous betrayal of a sacred trust.
     
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am aware that Josephs home was in Nazareth.. I thought it was Luke that mentions the census. Matthews story is simply made up by the misuse of OT Prophecies - which he mentions frequently. Why would a prophecy of 'God's Son' be necessary 700 years in Isaiah's future. Ditto Hosea's future. Prophecies are for the time, or they are pointless.

    Look at the whole story. We have Joseph somewhere in a house in Bethlehem, according to Matthew.cBut not in Luke. If his home was in Nazareth - and we know it was - what was he doing in Bethlehem. It';s 90 miles from Nazareth. What possible property could Joseph have had in Bethlehem. David was 1000 years in the past. 'Bethlehem' had undergone .an exile. After which many people remained in Babylon. Then the chaos of the Seleucid and Maccabean periods. Who knows who now populated Bethlehem. . If the descendants of David needed to go to Bethlehem there would have been at least 10's of thousands all making their way there. (David had 20 sons that we know of. Given the large families of the day 1000 years would have produced almost innumerable offspring and their families) No wonder 'there was no room at the inn'.
    The census was for tax purposes. Tax on property - not people. Josephs property was in Nazareth. .The 2 stories conflict in several ways. Not least Jesus being in Nazareth and Egypt at the same time. Jewish ritual over Luke had Jesus in Nazareth about 6 weeks after his birth and staying there. . Matthew has him in Egypt till Herod dies. .Hosea's prophesy has nothing to do with Jesus - unless Jesus name was really Israel, and he committed the sins found in the rest of the chapter. You can't take a verse and ignore the context of the whole.

    I'm not ''''well schooled in anti-christianity' having once been a committed Christian preacher, Bible Study leader etc. etc. What I am now is due to studying the REAL Bible. The book that was written against a background far different from today. To understand the REAL Bible you need to understand that. The Bible is merely a book which contains much wisdom but also allegories, myths etc.

    The 'divine' birth of Jesus is created from prophecies that had nothing to do with him. He was a very earnest Jewish preacher who saw the need for Israel to turn back to Yahweh from their religiously led errors. In going against the ridiculous teachings of the religious hierarchy and adhering to the LAW - the 10 commandments - he suffered the fate of many prophets.

    My own belief is that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Zebulon - just a few miles from Nazareth.
     
  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Donor

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    I trust all four of the gospels are a part of the "Word of God.". Based on Luke Chapter Two. There are a great many other references of course but that is enough.
     
  17. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you accept Luke 2:39-40 hen you reject Matthew 2:13-14. Jewish ritual, in Luke, was fulfilled after 40 days. Did Joseph and Mary travel to Egypt and settle till Herod died, and then return 'home' to Bethlehem on 40 days. Matthew tells us they went to live in Nazareth instead - because of Archelaus - who was as ruthless as his father. Matthew tells us it was to fulfil the prophecy 'He will be called a Nazarene'. There is no such prophecy in the OT.
    Matthews Hosea prophecy about Egypt goes back to the belief that the Jews were in Egypt. No evidence exists for this story's authenticity. Matthew uses a passage from Jeremiah referring to A 'Massacre of the Innocents'. Again no reference in History. - despite the fact we have a fairly detailed history of Herod the Greats exploits and atrocious behavior. The reference is back to Egypt and Rachel's supposed tears over her children in Egypt..
    How you can accept the 4 gospels as 'the Word of God' surprises me.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have not dodged anything - in the post you are responding to I address what you claimed I had dodged. You are the one in constant denial - you are dodging reality. You can lie to me if you like but, quit lying to yourself.

    1) that the same passage is repeated is because Matt uses Mark as a source document - and Luke uses Matt/Mark as a source document. Obviously the author of Matt thought Mark was significant - which is why he wrote an updated version .. same with Luke. All you have done is prove to yourself that the author of Matt and Luke did not witness the events they are writing about.

    2) That the authors of Matt/Luke thought the gospel of Mark was significant has nothing to do with whether or not the passage is about entrance into heaven. This is non sequitur fallacy (it does not follow) on steroids.

    3) I explained to you exactly why - and cited scripture which shows that Jesus is referring to works and not faith. If you had a problem with that explanation at the time .. why did you not mentioned it at the time ? All you are doing is pretending we did not have this conversation - at length.

    What part of "Only those that do the will of the Father" - do you not remember ? The "will of the Father" is what Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is all about works and does not once mention faith as a requirement.

    Question - do you feel that you are strong in the spirit or weak in the spirit - Is your faith strong or is it weak ?
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have not dodged anything - in the post you are responding to I address what you claimed I have dodged. You are the one in constant denial in a desperate attempt to dodge both reality and scripture. You can lie to me if you like but, quit lying to yourself.


    1) The same passage is repeated is because Matt uses Mark as a source document - and Luke uses Matt/Mark as a source document. Obviously the author of Matt thought Mark was significant - which is why he wrote an updated version .. same with Luke. All you have done is prove to yourself that the author of Matt and Luke did not witness the events they are writing about.


    2) That the authors of Matt/Luke thought the gospel of Mark was significant has nothing to do with whether or not the passage is about entrance into heaven. This is non sequitur fallacy (it does not follow) on steroids.

    This is a ridiculous grasping at straws attempt. How you go from "the authors thought some passage was significant " to this passage supports sola fide" - is a mind bending irrational gibberish coupled with non sequitur fallacy.

    So absurd is this lack of logic and reason that it is painful to respond.


    3) I explained to you exactly why - and cited scripture which shows that- Jesus is referring to works and not faith. If you had a problem with that explanation at the time .. why did you not mentioned it at the time ? All you are doing is pretending we did not have this conversation.
    This an avoidance/denial response - a common response in cult adherents when they encounter "bad thoughts".

    What part of "Only those that do the will of the Father" - do you not remember ? The "will of the Father" is what Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is all about works and does not once mention faith as a requirement - as part of "doing the will of the Father".

    Question - do you feel that you are strong in the spirit or weak in the spirit - Is your faith strong or is it weak ?
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not 80% Protestant and nor would it matter - do you even know what is being discussed ?

    Why do you now move the goalpost to "works alone". ... another cheap and fallacious tactic. The question is whether or not works is a requirement at all. There is no need for this new "works alone" bar for Sola fide to be contradicted.

    Good grief this is getting stupid. Go take a logic class.
     

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