The Case For Allowing Trump To Stay In Office, Even If He IS Guilty

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm sure most folks here are already well aware of all the recent news regarding Trump's Russia controversy, so I wont rehash that here...but....suppose Trump actually IS as guilty as its starting to seem...suppose all the things they're saying about him are true...that he's guilty of colluding with the Russians, obstructing justice, money laundering, all the rest of it, or even worse....even so, would it really be such a good idea to impeach him?

    Consider what happened after Nixon was sent packing. We ended up with Ford!....Now maybe Ford was not the worse president in history, but I'm sure not many would disagree that his presidency wasn't that great, and things did not get any better after he left, because following him we got Carter. We basically went from having several great presidents in a row during the period between 1933-1969, then we forced Nixon to resign, and to this day its been all downhill from there.

    Maybe, after Nixon was removed from office, the American people simply lost faith in the system. Maybe, it was around that time that folks started getting tired of the two-party duopoly,...but, rather than facing the issue head-on, chose to instead focus solely on ensuring defeat of the other side. A sudden explosion in extreme partisanship. Giving up on electing any actual decent or good politicians in the hopes of ensuring an easy victory for one's own side by going with candidates more adept at smearing the opposition.

    If such is the case, will impeaching Trump really make things any better? We are probably as a country more partisan now than we were when Nixon was in office. Impeaching Trump could not only exacerbate that partisanship, but given the current levels of animosity, one wonders if such a thing could lead to something much worse.

    So then, perhaps it would be better for us to allow Trump to stay in office, regardless of what Mueller finds.....Then again, it could be I'm just spouting crazy nonsense talk here.....Or perhaps.....it would be best for us as a country,...if Mueller were to simply keep what he knows to himself......What do you think?

    -Meta
     
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  2. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    ANY replacement would undoubtedly put more thought into decisions and actions; carelessness and disrespect for the law are DANGEROUS traits in a world leader.

    . . . . At least, Ford and Carter were honest; difficult situations defined their Presidencies.

    . . . . But I do agree that partisanship has gone TOO far and destroyed our unity.
     
  3. TheGreatSatan

    TheGreatSatan Banned

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    Trump should be giving the same pass that the Clinton's and the Obama got. If we gonna go all McCarthy trump, shouldn't we also punish anyone else who has been colluding with them?
     
  4. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that collusion ever took place assume for a moment that it did not; why aren't we questioning the judgement of someone who can not see that the Russians attempted to influence the election?
    The underlying answer is either naivety, vanity, or collusion.
     
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  5. logical1

    logical1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Guilty of what. Democrat have been frantically searching ever since Trump was elected, and have found nothing.
     
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  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Those are all good points. It is better, in general, to have a more honest president in office, or I should say, an honest one relatively speaking. Still, as dangerous as it is to have a habitual liar in office, how can we be so sure that it wouldn't be even more dangerous to get rid of him? For another example of what happens when a nation rids itself of such leaders, we can look to Iraq and Saddam Hussein or Libya and Muammar Gaddafi. Still good points though.
     
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  7. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So....are you suggesting that, regardless of what crimes were committed, we should give everyone a pass?
    Or are you saying that we should punish everyone who was involved instead?
    I don't think it's possible to do both of those things at the same time,
    which makes your post a little bit confusing...

    -Meta
     
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  8. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    Hmm, I would immediately take issue with your "guilty as its starting to seem" statement, given that there still is not even a shred of evidence of any crime committed, laws broken, illegal conspiracies established.... not a single shred, the liberal/media non-stop deafening hysteria on this matter notwithstanding.

    That being said, I disagree with the rest of your post as well... If it indeed can be credibly beyond any doubt established, that Trump is a Russian "Manchurian candidate" in cahoots with Putin, having some sort of quid pro quo arrangement with him, damaging the interests of the country - Trump should absolutely be impeached and the overwhelming majority of his supporters will accept the outcome, if faced with overwhelming evidence of his "treasonous activity".

    If on the other hand, Mueller goes on a fishing expedition and fishes some absurd unrelated unsavory business deal or a suspicious financial transaction with Russia or anyone else dating 10 years back, we will see it for the witch hunt that it is and then Mueller better hold this nonsense to himself, this is not what his investigation is about and not a ground for impeachment by any stretch of imagination.
     
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? I actually looked, and I don't believe that there were any other threads suggesting that Trump, even if guilty, should be allowed to stay in office. I guess its possible I could have missed one, though it seems unlikely there were five threads saying Trump should be allowed to stay. If I had seen one, I would have just posted in that one; I don't actually like to make threads myself you know.
     
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  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and yet the Republicans are leading the investigations and have called for more sanctions against Russia and Congressional approval before Trump can loosen any sanctions against Russia.

    sounds like the GOP believes there is something there
     
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  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    That may be true, and maybe in 'normaler' times it'd be OK to remove a president for that reason alone, but again, given the current climate, are we really sure we want to go down that road? All I'm saying is that we as a country really ought to carefully weigh the consequences (pros and cons) of either option before making any decisions rashly.

    -Meta
     
  12. TheGreatSatan

    TheGreatSatan Banned

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    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...we-survive-this.510344/page-2#post-1067772406
     
  13. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    That's why I supported Trump while disagreeing with him on Russia. I knew I would take republicans on dealing harshly with Russia over the party of spineless confused, wavering Obama, Sanders, Boxer, Franken any day.

    PS you understand that your response about republicans placing more sanctions on Russia in no way shape or form adds to the claim of Trump's collusion, right?
     
  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Obviously, Mueller has yet to publicly release all the details of his investigation,
    that said, what we, the public, do already know at this point, is that Trump and company have been lying through their teeth from day one.
    May question though is whether or not we really want to use any of that as an excuse to impeach Trump? It may not play out to the country's benefit to do so.
    What do you think? If Mueller does release incriminating info on Trump, should he be impeached?
    Or would it be better for us as a country for Mueller to just keep quiet?
    If Mueller just keeps everything he and his team knows a secrete, I'm sure folks will not like it,
    but it may end up being the only way to keep this country somewhat stable, don't you think?

    -Meta
     
  15. TheGreatSatan

    TheGreatSatan Banned

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    It's ok for liberals to collude and sell out to foreign powers... got it

    Obama tells the American people that this is how he's going to treat Russia, then he whispers to Russia, hey, I'm lying to the people, after I get elected I'll be more flexible.

    GETS A TOTAL PASS

    Bill Clinton gives speech to Russian bank for a 500k bribe, and suddenly Hillary SOS, oppose Russian sanctions...

    GETS A TOTAL PASS

    Trump is nowhere near this people want to hang the guy.

    0 credibility
     
  16. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    Yep... interesting... Actually, the more I think about the OP, the more it sounds like an attempt to have a backup position, a face saving excuse, a cop-out, in case Mueller comes up with nothing and this whole charade blows up into the liberal/media faces. I would not put it past them to start bleating, leaking and insinuating that Mueller had the goods but chose to not disclose them in order to avoid more divisions and possible riots.

    This is a very convenient shift of views at a time when it's quickly becoming less of a "collusion 2016" and more of "money laundering 2008"
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I wont comment on whether or not there is currently evidence of any crimes at this point, but as I said in my reply to logical1, what we do know is that Trump and company have been lying through their teeth, maybe to cover up something big...or maybe to cover up nothing at all. But I'll also point out that Trump's most recent actions certainly don't seem to be the actions of which one might expect an innocent person to take. On the other hand...it could be that Trump is merely putting on a big act; A clever ruse, put forth to pull the wool over the eyes of liberals and the media in an attempt to make them look bad. That could certainly be the case I think. But on the off-chance that Trump really is as guilty as he's making himself appear, I think we need to be prepared for the possibility that letting him remain in office may be the best course of action.

    -Meta
     
  18. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Good thread.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again:

    Forcing President Trump out of office (impeachment or forced resignation) even if he is guilty of everything alleged would be much more damaging than allowing him to remain in office anyway.

    Because in the future, NO PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION will be considered final and definitive. Election day and the electoral college vote will just be the beginning as the losing side seeks to find information to undermine and delegitimize the winner. Imagine having EVERY donor scrutinized for foreign ties or criminal ties. Imagine EVERY utterance by a winning candidate looked at in detail to see if they might be sympathetic to someone or some other nation that might've supported them.

    The United States might well end up as effectively ungovernable by its elected officials.

    In order for a nation of the size and complexity of the United States to be governed, an election must be final and definitive. It has to have consequences at least for a time.

    Our elections can't simply be the starting gun for another round of brutal partisan battling.
     
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  19. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    Meta, I respectfully fail to follow your logic. First you base your suspicion of Trump's criminal activity exclusively on his alleged lying, as if politicians don't lie every time their mouthsis open, as if there are no other reasons to withhold information.....as if media's witch hunt, hysteria and the propensity to spin and present absolutely everything related to Trump in the worst possible light is not a good enough reason.

    But then you state that if Trump is actually guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors (and in the context of the investigation this means treason and Trump being a Manchurian candidate working for Russia), he should remain in office?

    Frankly I see no logic at all in these two claims.
     
  20. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow the logic of this thread.
    "great presidents" - Nixon was the worst president of my lifetime. Thank Nixon for everything now having "Made in China" on it. Listen to tapes of his - a bigoted psychotic.
    Ford was a decent, honorable man - I voted for him.
    Carter has turned out to be a role model of what a true "Christian" ought to be.
    My question is why neither Reagan nor ole man Bush had ANY penalty for selling arms to Iran???
    I regard THAT as treason, and we know they were in on it.

    I believe Trump will also be found to have money laundered Russian money - he, his brood, his associates - and Trump's own statements indicate he feels "dealing dirt" with the Russians, as his son did, is not wrong.

    Trump (and Nixon and Reagan and Bush) felt they were above the law - we, as a nation, need to decide if they are.
     
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  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So...from your response, it sounds like you believe that Trump's impeachment should be predicated on the type of criminal evidence found.
    Evidence that Trump is giving concessions to Putin in exchange for Putin having helped him win the election: Impeach.
    Evidence that Trump and Putin were doing something illegal 10 years ago: Do Not Impeach.......Is that about right?
    Well I'm still not so sure I agree...

    You say that if provided clear evidence of the former, that the majority of his supporters will accept his impeachment. But how can you be so sure of that?
    And even if a lot of them do accept it, how can we be certain that the ones who don't wont still spark some conflict that ends up dividing us as nation even further?

    -Meta
     
  22. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    "To form a more perfect union" OBVIOUSLY means to constantly seek improvement, remembering the past in order to avoid repeating our mistakes.

    Where would we be now if our founding fathers had not boldly forged ahead to fulfill their dreams??? If we do not at least make an effort to move forward in a positive direction, we are subconsciously embracing the belief that our existence is meaningless.
     
  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    What does that question have to do with this thread?? It doesn't even make sense.
    Why do Hillary and Obama get a pass, but not Trump?? Seriously??? Did you even READ the OP?
    The whole point of the OP is to point out that Trump SHOULD get a pass, as a means of safeguarding our union.
    So please stick to the thread topic, and actually read posts before responding to them. Thanks,

    -Meta
     
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmm, Now that you point that one out, I can see the similarities,
    still there is a clear difference in that this thread is specifically making the case that Trump ought to be allowed to stay in office.
    That should be evident from the thread title I would think, but even if not it should be made clear in the OP itself.
    Again, this is why one needs to read threads before responding to them.

    So now that we are, hopefully, on the same page as to what this thread is about, to steer us back on topic, let me ask you.
    What is your opinion? Do you think Trump should be allowed to stay in office, even if guilty??
    Do you think it would be better for Mueller to keep his findings a secrete? Or do you think Mueller should release them,
    and that Trump should be impeached if the evidence turns out to be incriminating??? And what is your reasoning????

    -Meta
     
  25. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    Well, in a nutshell, this is my position. Trump being a traitor, Manchurian candidate, on Putin's payroll is one thing. A fishing expedition going decades back, producing some "crime" unrelated to the campaign or Trump's ability to govern and act in the interests of the country is a different thing entirely and will be viewed as what it really is - a media/lib witch hunt and a soft coup to overturn the election result

    They support Trump because they are patriotic americans, not the other way around. As patriotic americans, if they see clear evidence that Trump works for Russia, they will accept and welcome the impeachment... If they see a clear evidence of a fishing expedition and a witch hunt that produced some totally unrelated to the campaign and Russian meddling violation or even a crime dating back a decade ago, I doubt that would go down well with Trump's voters.

    But that's just me :)
     

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