The Case for Socialism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Kris P. Bacon, Jul 13, 2022.

  1. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Being from across the pond, there’s a little bit of socialism in me that will never go away. I like it because it works. I’m guaranteed a level of state pension whether the stock market’s collapse or not. I don’t have to worry about affording healthcare, it’s guaranteed and I will never have to live on the streets in a tent, it wouldn’t be allowed.

    Let’s begin by definitions. Socialism is not communism, but can lead to it if it goes too far and the state itself becomes socialist as in countries like Venezuela. Yes, I know many in the US have been conditioned to look at socialism as a bogey man, but it’s not. Socialism is widely disliked by business and corporates, not by the people it helps.

    When the next recession comes listen to big businesses howling for bail outs and stimuluses’, but you as an ordinary individual won’t be seeing any of that. Wall Street will get a bail out and you might very well end up sleeping on the streets.

    The idea behind socialism is that it’s not the fault of the little guy when recessions occur, or he can’t make a living working 15 hours a day, or he gets sick. We are not things to be used and discarded if we can’t make a profit for someone.

    Socialism says that if I work all my life and pay taxes to the government, it’s not so they can live a life of privilege and luxury that I’ve paid for out of my taxes. If things go wrong, I expect them to step in and help me as an individual.

    Socialism isn’t free, nor is it cheap; Recently, I paid 20% tax, plus National Insurance contributions for my health care and a huge 20% Value Added Tax (VAT) on just about everything I buy – a bit like your state tax. In return I got unemployment benefit if I ever needed it on demand, free healthcare (no deductibles, no pre-existing conditions and not care dependent on the ability to pay) and towards the end of my life, a pension. Onto my pension is added free healthcare, free accommodation and all utilities paid.

    Socialism says that if you’re young fit and healthy and can make money, go out and do it. But it also carries a warning; if you see society as an individual dog-eat-dog competition, then one day when you might need help you’ll find out there isn’t any. That’s the time people appreciate socialism.
     
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  2. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    It has never worked, anywhere.
     
  3. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    there are servuces that are not intrinsically profitable yet are necessary for a community to exist. roads and bridges, public health, sewage disposal and treatment etc. even a "well regulated militia" might come in handy if a neighboring tribe of apaches is wandering around acting as if they own the place.

    americans are not very good at nuance. if a government denies mom's heart transplant (she is only 102) that is godless communism, how unlike if an insurance company makes the same decision based on economic analyses.
     
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  4. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    That's not true, but what you are referring to isn't "socialism", it's totalitarianism and that never works our well for anybody. While it's going the people suffer and when they have had enough the totalitarian dies.

    (That should be a warning to Donald Judas tRump)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  5. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    it has cost the working class trillions of dollars to keep capitalism "working." maybe it is time to apply a little bit of capitalism to the "too big to fail crowd."who think the world owes them a living.
     
  6. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    It works in Europe. We've tried it. Having tried it we will never go back to the dog-eat-dog society before the war. No country that has socialism has ever voted to go back to the privatized model. The US is the only country left in the west that doesn't have socialism, but it will come when the number of have nots increase.
     
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  7. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    Can you ever make a post without referring to Trump? He owns your mind.
     
  8. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha no it’s never once worked. It rewards mediocrity, attempts to fight Darwin, and no one from a civilized country is trying to go there. It’s a dismal and embarrassing failure on all counts. Star Trek is just a film series.
     
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  9. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    It DOESN'T work in Europe. The UK is a mess. Germany is a mess. Even Finland, Sweden, etc are a mess.
     
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  10. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    The economy yes, its people no. We don’t have tent cities and people crowdfunding to stay alive.

    What socialism also does is stop revolutions. When enough people go hungry, sleep on the pavement and can see no future, you’ll quickly see the current politicians change their minds. Not everyone can get to the top, but socialism is simply a safety net for those that can’t. If you don’t like socialism it’s probably because you currently have no need for it. It’s a bit like having car insurance and never having an accident, but when you need it, you’ll be glad you have it.

    I can drop on the floor now with a massive heart attack. In a couple of minutes there will be an ambulance arriving at my door and within half an hour I’ll be on the operating table, not trying to work out if I can afford it, an insurance company agree to fund it, or it’s cheaper to die instead. In the autumn (fall), the government are to give pensioners a one off payment of £500 ($596) to help with the cost of living. More next year. And why not? We paid into society for decades, now society looks after us. When the government stops looking after its citizens the end isn’t far away.
     
  11. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    They wouldn't be able to afford keeping socialism working. The OP isn't talking about socialism. He is talking about government social spending. He wouldn't like socialism at all. See Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, North Korea and anywhere else government controls business.
     
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  12. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    People are not a mediocrity, but yes, we long ago gave up the idea of Darwinism and the only the fittest survive. When you’re no longer the fittest, you’ll understand. There's a reason the US is the only country in the west that still clings to century old ideas.
     
  13. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Every country in Europe has a capitalist economy. You don't even understand what socialism is. What you are supporting is a high level of government social spending. It isn't socialism.
     
  14. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    I consider tRaitor tRump to be the greatest danger to humanity the world has ever known ... NO ... I guess not.
    Truthfully I long for the days when people would ask, "you despise tRump don't you?"; and I replied "If I thought about him I would." 8)

    I noticed you didn't counter my socialism argument.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  15. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    LOL. The socialist policies lead to the economy being a mess and lead to high inflation. Just ask Venezuela. That's where the socialist countries are headed. High and rampant inflation makes everyone's lives miserable, particularly the poorer. Keep it up and you have Venezuela.
     
  16. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    You wanted to talk about Trump. Let me know when you can have a conversation without mentioning Trump.
     
  17. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Cuba and North Korea are communist. Venezuela is socialist. All very different from socialism. Socialism means the state controls some of the essentials in society, not businesses.
     
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  18. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    Which are all Totalitarian, not Socialist economies.
     
  19. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    Hey that's a bargain, I get to talk about tRaitor tRump without you piping in with your bullshit ... DEAL! 8)
    AND! I get to chime in on your constant attacks on President Biden. Seems fair to me! :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  20. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hi Kris P

    There's a language barrier and a concept barrier.

    When Pres. Putin said a major aim in the Ukraine was to eliminate Neo Nazis, he was talking to the deaf because few Americans know what a Neo-Nazi or a Neo-Fascist is.

    I opened a thread on a big forum on Neoliberalism, and despite that being the economic system the US uses, I got zero replies.

    I did get replies to a thread about what is the left and what is the right,

    but hardly any of the replies agreed with each other, and the consensus in the end was it's mostly about abortion.

    The language has been destroyed, it's 1984 new speak and doublethink.

    Try to get a movement going when nobody knows what anybody else is talking about.
     
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  21. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    if i could take that life size cardboard trump and walk until i found a place where people asked me "who is that?" i might have found a home. (credit : homer_)
     
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  22. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Since birth, US citizens are conditioned to believe only businesses and the private sector can succeed. The old wagon trains heading west, building the railroads, the industrial revolution … The apple pie all this produced has long gone and left behind tens of millions and those are where the change will come from.

    If you look around the Internet, at Americans living or visiting the UK, you won’t find any complaining. This is not what you think or what you’ve been led to believe, this is practical socialism.

     
  23. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's an innate problem with running any kind of care system using a profit incentive because they make money by keeping people sick.

    Many people in caring professions do care, but the profit incentive works in the opposite direction.

    So it's two steps forward and one step back, and very expensive.
     
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  24. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Yes, you have hospitals who hope you get sick and insurance companies who hope you don’t. The doctors also hope you do and the pharmaceuticals agree you should be prescribed as much medication as possible. Everyone is pushing and pulling to make a profit and sod the patient. Some things are good to be privatized, health isn’t one of them.
     
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  25. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Between those two extremes are many levels of socialism. In the US, politicians push socialism to funnel tax dollars to those who help elect/reelect them. This is done under the guise of caring for society, but results show the opposite. If people are healthy enough to work, we give them incentives to sit on the couch and consume subsidized products until they are too fat and sick to work.

    I live in California and we lean your direction. Taxes are high and even illegal immigrants get free healthcare. We also lead the nation in poverty.

    Pushing the US in that direction means more obese have-nots. Please keep it over there and we will keep our guns here, unless of course you end up needing them again.

    [​IMG]
     

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