The Curious Case of Alleged Chinese Military Hacking

Discussion in 'Asia' started by reedak, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    US security firm Mandiant alleged on Tuesday (19 Feb) that cyberattacks that stole massive amounts of information from military contractors, energy companies and other key industries in the US and elsewhere have been traced to the doorstep of "Unit 61398" of the People's Liberation Army.

    Before we discuss the many other speculations, probabilities and theories about the hacking, let's assume or believe the allegation is true.

    Assuming the allegation is true, I can only say that the Chinese government and military are led by a group of nincompoops with no basic common sense. The whole report gives an impression that the Chinese is a race of dimwits that are destined to go in the same way of the Native Americans.

    Even the spies and uneducated professional killers in backward countries know how to do clean job by constantly on the move and not leaving any trace of footprints to their doorsteps. Similarly, if the Chinese military have any common sense at all, they could have hidden a few computer wizards in other countries to do the hacking instead of grouping them at home in "a drab, white 12-story office building".

    Well, China and the Chinese, if you are really the idiots the report makes you out to be, you are doomed!

    Security Firm Alleges Hacking by Chinese Military
    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/02/19/security-firm-alleges-hacking-by-chinese-military.html
     
  2. Onward James

    Onward James New Member

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    As long as they mcan get away with it, no complaints, or little, then the Chiocms will continue.

    Has Obama got balls regarding the cyberspace Chicoms, the spies? The list is long... except they are financiers of America, too. I say boycott products made in China... which is unlikely because Walmart makes too much money with the commies' cheaper exports.

    China's wall crumbles
    http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-...urce=today&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=022013
     
  3. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    For the moment, let's talk about easier tasks like petty theft instead of harder tasks like spying and hacking.

    Suppose you have stolen a chicken from your neighbour, are you going to leave a trail of your footprints all the way from your neighbour's house to your doorstep? Or are you going to let the stolen chicken drop some dung or feathers near your door?

    Are you so naive as to think the US is such a "well-behaved citizen of the world" that it has never tried to test its cyberspace skills by probing and penetrating the firewalls of other countries' internet?
     
  4. theunbubba

    theunbubba Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, no matter how good you are, you always leave a trail on the internet.
     
  5. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's the trick. Always leave a trail to your enemy's home so as to let him get rid of by others (police).

    "A mousetrap has free cheese for moronic mice."

    Can you detect "the trail" to your quote from this quote of mine?
     
  6. theunbubba

    theunbubba Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An old Russian proverb? I doubt it.
     
  7. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    It's theunbubba proverb with a reedak twist. No doubt about it.
     
  8. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the military intelligence unit based in Shanghai assumed that their IP addresses are not traceable by taking a routine measure to hide their location but the American cyber security firm outwitted the Chinese counterpart by successfully tracing the Chinese hackers. There is nothing new about this kind of security breach by a Communist country to steal industrial secrets from Western countries and the Obama administration is preparing to impose economic sanctions on China.
     
  9. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    Third Term smart aleck, if you are planning to commit a series of crimes such as robbery and murder, will you commit the crimes near your home?

    Clever and crafty people never assume when they commit crimes. Unless you are as brainless as the alleged idiotic Chinese military hackers and civilian government, I have nothing more to say.

    Are you so naive as to think that the US never has the "itch" and temptation to probe and penetrate into the cyber networks of other countries?

    If the US allegation is true, do you really think that economic sanctions are effective? Just look at the results of the economic sanctions against North Korea and Iran.

    Economic sanctions against such a huge country like China will lead to counter-sanctions and eventually a trade war that is detrimental not only to both countries but also the rest of the world.

    You might as well suggest to the US to sever diplomatic relations with China.
     
  10. Franticfrank

    Franticfrank New Member

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    Definitively proving it was the Chinese military is the difficult bit. I think the US should not stand idly by while its business are coming under virtual attack from the Chinese military. Cyber attacks and real-life attacks need to be given the same status, as both can cause an untold amount of damage. There should be real consequences - look at statistics on the average cost of a successful cyber attack to an U.S. company in 2012, by amount of damage. Operational disruption, financial losses and fear generated need to be taken extremely seriously. A Chinese military cyber attack needs to be treated like a standard Chinese military attack and there should be repercussions in terms of trade, referral to the UN, etc.
     
  11. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Seriously, what can the US do?
     
  12. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

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    I think you've played too many video games.
     
  13. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    I think you should create a video game for the players to compete hacking around while playing it.
     
  14. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    Quite true, even with allout cooperation among all countries including the US and China, the menace of hacking will never be eradicated. It just takes only one super whiz kid hiding in China, the US or any country to wreak havoc in the cyberspace.

    Following are excerpts from the article headlined "Analysis: The near impossible battle against hackers everywhere" at http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/24/us-cybersecurity-battle-idUSBRE91N03520130224

    (Begin excerpts)
    ...But those on the front lines say it isn't all about protecting U.S. government and corporate networks from a single sudden attack. They report fending off many intrusions at once from perhaps dozens of countries, plus well-funded electronic guerrillas and skilled criminals.

    Security officers and their consultants say they are overwhelmed. The attacks are not only from China, which Washington has long accused of spying on U.S. companies, many emanate from Russia, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Western countries. Perpetrators range from elite military units to organized criminal rings to activist teenagers... (End excerpts)

    It seems that all governments will have no choice but to continue finding new ways to enhance the security of their computer systems. However, the hackers will never stand idly by. They will also continue finding new ways to penetrate the computer systems. So in the end, there will be no end to the battle between hacking and counter-hacking.

    This reminds me of the Chinese term "mao dun" (meaning spear and shield) which is used to describe a contradiction or a dispute for which a solution appears intractable. Its idiomatic use originates from a Chinese parable about the logical incompatibility between the impenetrable shield and the all-piercing spear.

    Following are excerpts from the article headlined "Unpenetrable Shield and All-piercing Spear" at http://www.chinapage.com/story/illogic.html

    (Begin excerpts)
    An armourer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.

    "My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.

    "My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

    A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?" The armourer had no reply. :bonk:

    By logic, both an unpenetrable shield and an all-piercing spear cannot exist at the same time. (End excerpts)

    The battle between hacking and counter-hacking (like its counterpart in space between the most penetrating missile and the most impenetrable missile defence shield) is akin to the eternal battle between the all-piercing spear ("mao") and the impenetrable shield ("dun"). The "mao dun" (contradiction) will never be resolved.
    :dual:

    Teen hacker pleads guilty to hacking into U.S. military
    http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/spectator.24oct98.html

    26 Year Old Computer Wiz & Co-Founder Of Reddit Commits Suicide In NY Apartment
    http://seyisanchez.wordpress.com/20...er-of-reddit-commits-suicide-in-ny-apartment/

    Top 10 Most Famous Hackers of All Time
    http://www.comparebusinessproducts.com/fyi/top-10-most-famous-hackers-all-time

    Idiom: Self-contradiction——zi xiang mao dun
    http://www.aoehome.org/2012-01/idiom-self-contradiction——zi-xiang-mao-dun/

    Spears and Shields: China's 11 January missile defence test
    http://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentary/ref:C4B55A28F35339/
     
  15. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    A Chinese military unit based in Shanghai has been accused of being behind a series of hacking attacks on more than 140 organisations over the last seven years. If the accusation is true, the entire military unit should be sacked for being incompetent, inefficient, unprofessional and below the standard of schoolboy hackers and the elite military units in the US, Russia, Europe, Japan and other countries.

    It won't be surprising that the elite military units in the US and other powers could have hacked several times more organisations over the last seven years. However, they could do it so stealthily and efficiently that nobody is pointing an accusing finger at them.

    If the accusation about Chinese hacking is true, it would be better for the Chinese government to hire a few schoolboy hackers to do the job more efficiently instead of wasting so much money and resources on an army of rookie hackers.

    Hacking started long ago in the 1960s when computers were not available outside the US. As shown in the history of hacking, it doesn't need a whole army of hacking experts but one 15-year-old computer whiz kid to hack into the US military computer systems.

    Those who continue accusing China of engaging in state hacking give the impression that only the Chinese military knows the art of hacking while all the people in other countries are downright idiots. Nowadays, many countries even the backward ones have mastered the art of hacking. Even school children know how to hack if they are determined to master the art. This is not surprising when many books and websites are available to impart the black art to those interested in it.

    With China open to the outside world, it is easy for foreigners to engage in hacking activities in China.

    1. The following groups may be engaging in hacking activities in China with the aims of discrediting China, making China a scapegoat, harming China's relations with other countries and even trying to create armed conflicts between China and the US:

    (a) Chinese regional separatists
    (b) Chinese activists and dissidents
    (c) Foreign spies and agents
    (d) Third country benefiting from a worsening Sino-US relationship

    2. Private companies, which belong to local Chinese, overseas Chinese or foreigners, engaging in industrial espionage, economic espionage or corporate espionage.

    3. Individuals, either Chinese or foreigners, hacking for fun or criminal purposes.

    4. It cannot be ruled out that some errant state companies may join in the hacking activities, but to allege that the military can engage in hacking on such a huge scale and in such an incompetent, childish and unprofessional way is laughable and unimaginable for a rising military and economic power.

    Chinese military unit accused of hacking attacks
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/chinese-military-unit-accused-of-hacking-attacks/4528870

    Chinese military unit identified as source of major hacks
    http://www.tgdaily.com/security-bri...tary-unit-identified-as-source-of-major-hacks

    Schoolboy Hacker Now Working With Microsoft
    http://theplayvault.com/wp/2011/05/23/schoolboy-hacker-now-working-with-microsoft/

    Boy avoids jail for hacking into US weapons lab
    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/03/1075776059230.html

    Schoolboy hacks into city's tram system
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1575293/Schoolboy-hacks-into-citys-tram-system.html

    Australian 17-year-old takes blame for Twitter chaos
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ge3h0IevMgVuQ0h2yxwKgnGZ7vfw

    The History of Hacking
    http://www.roadnews.com/html/Articles/historyofhacking.htm

    Timeline of computer security hacker history
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_computer_security_hacker_history

    Timeline: A 40-year history of hacking
    http://articles.cnn.com/2001-11-19/...s-computer-club-emmanuel-goldstein?_s=PM:TECH

    Top 10 most famous hackers
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/6670127/Top-10-most-famous-hackers.html

    Famous Hackers
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fifteen-greatest-hacking-exploits,1790-2.html
     
  16. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    My dear Uncle, the first impulse of every organism or organization is self-preservation. In this context the Chinese Communist Party is no exception.

    The only way the Chinese Communist Party can preserve its legitimacy in the eyes of the Chinese people is to maintain the Mandate of Heaven. That requires economic expansion to improve the lives of the Chinese people.

    One of the ways of maintaining economic expansion is through the acquistion of intellectual property by any means necessary. Thus, the Party tolerates hunting expeditions by Chinese citizens and groups seeking to illicitly acquire foreign intellectual property. This is what has allowed China to catch up with the West in many ways. But theft remains theft no matter what one's reasons for engaging in the practice.
     
  17. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    You are right in saying that maintaining the Mandate of Heaven requires economic expansion to improve the lives of the people. At least the CCP is more sensible and realistic than its North Korean counterpart in trying to improve the lives of the people.

    The Jade Emperor was/is supposed to bestow the Mandate of Heaven on all Chinese emperors. Since he receives offerings and prayers from the Chinese people in the temples, he is answerable to them for anything that goes wrong after bestowing the Mandate of Heaven.

    As the ancient mystic saying goes, "As above, so below", let's keep one step ahead of the Jade Emperor in evaluating Hu's job performance in his 10-year tenure as Chinese President.

    Please go the following thread if you are interested in assessing Hu's performance.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/asia/294736-hu-jintaos-10-year-report-card.html#post1062423077
     
  18. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Oops!...
    :confusion:
    S Korean hacking probe misidentified Chinese IP address
    Sat, Mar 23, 2013 - South Korean investigators say they were wrong when they identified a Chinese Internet address as the origin of a cyberattack that paralyzed tens of thousands of computers at six South Korean companies this week. However, they still believe the attack originated from somewhere abroad.
     
  19. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    The latest news alleging Chinese military hacking was given such headlines as "China's universities linked to cyber-spying" and "Top Chinese university has ties with PLA cyber-spying unit". Such headlines give the wrong impression that Chinese universities are involved in cyber-spying too.

    First of all, we have to take note that there is no concrete proof that the Chinese military unit is involved in the so-called cyber-spying, but the headlines have already passed that judgment. This is analogous to labelling a "suspect" as a "murderer" before any sentence is passed by the judge. Now such words like "linked" and "ties" are used to drag the Chinese universities into the hacking allegation.

    It is an open secret and common sense that all countries in the world, especially the US, are using university facilities and personnel to do research in cyber warfare and weapon production. You don't expect the army in any country to do research in cyber warfare and weapon production in their barracks and camps. Hence the latest news about Chinese universities doing research in cyber warfare is nothing new. There is a smack of sensationalism in the reporting.

    Following are excerpts from the article headlined "US Electromagnetic Weapons and Human Rights" at http://mindjustice.org/censored12-06.htm

    (Begin excerpts)
    According to testimony by Senator Edward Kennedy in 1977,

    "Some 2 years ago, the Senate Health Subcommittee heard chilling testimony about the human experimentation activities of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over 30 universities and institutions were involved in an ‘extensive testing and experimentation’ program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens ‘at all social levels, [high and low], native Americans and foreign.’ Several of these [tests involved] the administration of LSD to ‘unwitting subjects in [social] situations.’ ... The Central Intelligence Agency drugged American citizens without their knowledge or consent. It used university facilities and personnel without their knowledge.".....

    TMS is being developed for military purposes using electrical impulses at close proximity to the skull to enhance mood, affect sleep patterns, and increase creativity. This technology is beginning to replace electro-shock therapy. DARPA (Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency) granted a contract to the Medical University of South Carolina to research now to improve a soldier’s performance. A soldier’s reaction to stress may be less intense, or a 40-hour flight will allow for the soldier to remain awake without the side effects of sleep deprivation..... (End excerpts)

    Here is brief description about the operation of "DARPA" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA

    "DARPA typically builds strong teams and networks of collaborators, bringing in a range of technical expertise and applicable disciplines, and involving university researchers and technology firms that are often not significant defence contractors or beltway consultants."

    China's universities linked to cyber-spying
    http://www.guampdn.com/usatoday/article/1954205

    Top Chinese university has ties with PLA cyber-spying unit
    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1198561/top-chinese-university-has-ties-pla-cyber-spying-unit

    The school that trains cyber spies: U.S. university training students in online espionage for jobs in the NSA and CIA
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...g-students-online-espionage-jobs-NSA-CIA.html

    UCSC, Weapons Research, Universities in the Service of the Warfare State
    http://santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/3217

    Manhattan Project
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

    Non-Lethal Weapons Research in the US:
    Calmatives and Malodorants
    http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/bk/bk8en.html

    Genetically Engineered Anti-Material Weapons
    http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/bk/bk9en.html

    Maximum pain is aim of new US weapon
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7077-maximum-pain-is-aim-of-new-us-weapon.html
     

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