The debt is proof of our wealth

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by GodTom, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You don't have permission to use my land. I don't want your money.

    I may be willing to contribute towards a prison for you. Your very own cell. You won't have to pay to use it, society will do that for you.



    Don't respect our rights to liberty? No reason why we should respect yours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 7:37 PM
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    The liberty to use any land non-exclusively is a right in pre-agricultural societies, not in more advanced ones where there is rightful property in significant fixed improvements.
    Not if it is justly compensated both by the excluder to the community of those excluded and by that community to those excluded. Every mature adult (might not include you) knows that individual liberty rights cannot be unconditional or inviolable in a social context. The point is to secure and reconcile everyone's rights and make the inevitable compromises compatible with individual liberty and justice by making just compensation whenever rights are abrogated.
     
  3. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking the excluded will be you. Since you don't share a common morality system with the rest of us.
    Expect to be making a lot of compromises.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 7:40 PM
  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So your right to liberty is not unconditional or inviolable. Got it. I'll remember that the next time you say a landowner is violating your right to liberty.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 8:05 PM
  5. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Why would I need your "permission" to exercise my right to liberty and use the land nature put there with no help from you or any previous self-styled "landowner"? What on earth makes you imagine it is somehow "your" land, any more than slave owners thought their slaves were "their" slaves? Is your claim based on ANYTHING but sheer aggressive, violent coercion? Is it also "your" ocean if you claim it, and threaten others with your little gun if they exercise their liberty rights to use it without your permission? "Your" sun?

    You have a long way to go before you will understand what genuine, valid property rights are based on.
    Hehe. The greed of the welfare chiseler for unearned wealth is to the greed of the landowner as the brightness of the moon is to the brightness of the sun.
    Right back atcha, champ. Except that when society takes down greedy, privileged, landowning parasites, prison is typically not considered a drastic enough remedy. 'Nuff said.
    Right back atcha, champ. But unlike you, I have actual reason:

    You are merely claiming that your right to liberty includes the liberty to deprive me of liberty without making just compensation. That is the credo of the thief, the parasite, the slaver. Surprise!
     
  6. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You need my permission mate, because I am a large animal and I'm not offering you that liberty

    (Since it comes at the expense of a liberty of my own that I value more than yours).

    Your own greed maybe all the justification you need to take liberties from me, but my ability to remove a great many of your liberties from you should not be underestimated.

    I earned my land. You did not.
    All you need to know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 8:23 PM
  7. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    WSDE only suggests a management system. It doesn't suggest anything about the environment in which a business operates. Hi Kode. Back to your misunderstanding of and misinformation about business, it seems.
     
  8. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's a business management alternative. Where is the "misunderstanding of and misinformation" that you're referring to?
     
  9. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    The comment that their main focus is not profit. They may not know it is profit and you may not know it is profit but it is profit. Otherwise it will fail.
     
  10. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    For a corporation rent-seeking behaviour is a key element of the profit objective. It isn't in worker ownership. Indeed, higher profit would typically be a spillover from productivity maximisation.
     
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You know that a WSDE won't rent-seek?
     
  12. james M

    james M Well-Known Member

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    rent seeking is when you make money too easily for a libcommies taste. A liberal won't know that when money can be made easily it encourages more and more competition
    until it is no longer easy to make money. A libcommie will want to crack down on rent seeking at gunpoint and crackdown on 100001 other capitalist activities at gunpoint until our govt is fully communist.

    Norman Thomas ( socialist presidential candidate)
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I understand that you prefer to profit from injustice, and even forcibly to inflict it on others for that purpose. Most landowners are content for government to use force on their behalf, and don't need the thrill of seeing the fear and despair in their victims' eyes.
    No? Your "possessions" include their rights to liberty. Now does it make more sense?
    That's not the choice on offer, and you know it. It's a community and democratic government whose job is to secure and reconcile the equal rights of all to life, liberty, and property in the fruits of their labor or a greedy, privileged, thieving private parasite answerable only to himself. Justice vs injustice. Not a complicated concept.
    I get it. You fancy yourself some sort of feudal lord. No doubt your intentions as landowner include droit du seigneur.
     
  14. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, you are aware that that is false. It is uncompensated private exclusion on the current model that steals people's rights to liberty, because it does not provide any compensation to the victims. Making just compensation as proposed in the geoist model is not stealing because the loss is compensated. You just prefer injustice to justice, evil to good. You literally believe that evil is better than good as long as it is profitable to you personally, so you pretend that there is no difference between justice (market value compensation) and injustice (no compensation). Simple.
     
  15. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It's everyone, and that won't change. The difference is just compensation for the exclusion vs no compensation.
    It's despicable and disingenuous to presume to speak for your victims in order to renounce their rights on their behalf.
    You too, champ.
     
  16. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    It's a basic tenet of our society.
    "An Englishman's home is his castle".

    It's a free country mate.
    We are all free men.



    When you see some land do you think to yourself, "that land is mine, I earned it"
    Or do you think, that land belongs to everyone. No one earned it.

    I don't think you have any respect for what other people have earned at all.
    You think without having earned it you have as much right to it as those who did.

    All you need to know about a piece of land is this, did you earn it?
    If the answer is "no", why are you laying claim to it?
    Because you haven't thought it through is the answer, because you allowed your greed to get the better of your judgement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 8:11 PM
  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Just the shame that homelessness has gone through the roof
     
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    My right to liberty is not something I get from you or seek from you. You have no power to give me liberty. You only have power to violate it by committing crimes against me -- which I understand it is your intention to do. So no, I do not need your permission any more than our ancestors for millions of years needed the permission of some self-righteous megalomaniac to use what nature provided to sustain themselves.
    There is no such thing as a liberty right to remove others' liberty rights, as that is a self-contradiction. In fact, you are not interested in a right to liberty at all. You just want to use force to impose your will on others. Your every sentence reeks of it.
    You are the one forcibly removing others' liberty, and I will thank you to remember it.
    Thank you for proving what I told you at the outset: you are not interested in liberty or rights. Your intention is to steal by force, ignoring others' rights and claiming, absurdly and disingenuously, that it is your "liberty right" to do so.
    No, you most certainly did not, as that is impossible. Labor earns its product. As land is not a product of anyone's labor, it can never be earned by labor.
    No one ever can.
    Hehe. That's what Muslims say about the Qu'ran. So I get where you're coming from: you claim a "liberty" right to impose your will on others by force. You certainly are not the first to do so, and likely won't be the last. Unfortunately, I already know a lot more than you want me to. And anyone reading my posts is learning it, too. Including you, whether you want to or not.
     
  19. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    A home is not land.
    Garbage.
    Nope. Our rights to liberty have been removed by force and made into the private property of the privileged, especially landowners.
    I am aware of the fact that no one could possibly have earned it.
    I have more than you, anyway: at least, unlike landowners, I don't presume to demand that others give me what they have earned in return for nothing.
    It is impossible to earn ownership of other people's rights to liberty. I know what I have earned, and it can never include that.
    No, because there is no information there: no one could ever have earned it.
    I only lay claim to my right to liberty. On what basis is anyone laying claim to land? They certainly didn't produce it.
    Oh, but I have, champ. Count on it.
    ROTFL!! Check your dictionary. Greed is defined as excessive, rapacious desire for what one neither needs nor deserves. That sounds an awful lot like a landowner to me. In fact, landowners have been proverbial for greed throughout history, in every society where land has been private property. The landowner, specifically and uniquely, demands that others pay HIM full market value for the services and infrastructure government provides, the opportunities and amenities the community provides, and the physical qualities nature provides at that location. You will note the absence from that list of anything the landowner provides.

    Time for YOU to start thinking it through, champ. If you have the courage. Which I am certain you do not.
     
  20. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    No, it's absolutely true. If they exclude me from any land, they are stealing my right to liberty, even if the do give me their measly "compensation". They're still stealing my right to liberty, and that's evil.
     

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