The dread many feared has finally arrived

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Sandy Shanks, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    The Trump administration announced in March that it would introduce tariffs of 25% on steel and 10% on aluminum imported into the US. Many feared the consequences of such tariffs on our vibrant economy. The economy was working -- very well, I might add -- why fix it?

    Trump was nervous about the unintended consequences, too, along with his own party. The GOP is the free trade party, but Congress did nothing. Fearing the consequences, Trump deferred the tariffs for three months.

    The deferment ended and the duties on steel and aluminum went ahead on 1 June and affect the EU, Canada, Mexico and other close US allies.

    While we were waiting Trump started another trade war with China.

    We are now feeling the effects of Trump's trade wars.

    Market Watch reports, "U.S. stocks closed solidly lower on Thursday, with major indexes suffering one of their worst sessions of the month and the Dow Jones Industrial Average extending its losing streak to an eighth day as fears of a potential global trade war continued to weigh on investor sentiment.

    "The Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, -0.80% fell 196.1 points, or 0.8%, to end at 24,461.70. The blue-chip average’s losing streak matches its longest since March 2017. If it extends the losing streak to nine sessions on Friday, it will match the longest losing streak since 1978, according to the WSJ Market Data Group.

    "Investors remain fixated on trade tensions between the U.S. and key trading partners such as China and the European Union."

    Speaking of which, the BBC adds, "The European Union (EU) has introduced retaliatory tariffs on US goods as a top official launched a fresh attack on President Donald Trump's trade policy."

    They take effect on Friday.

    Remember this photo taken at the G-7 summit, where Trump arrived late, left early, and declared that Canada is a threat to our national security.

    [​IMG]

    Thank you, Mr. President. You are doing Putin proud.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
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  2. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you understand why he said Canada was a threat to our national security?
     
  3. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    No, please explain it to me.
     
  4. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    The New York Times reports, "For years, American companies have complained that the Chinese government finds ways to get them to hand over their most valuable trade secrets. Those companies — which usually complain anonymously, fearing Chinese retribution — have found a sympathetic ear in the Trump administration.

    "American trade officials on Thursday cited those practices as a major motivation for their plans to levy tariffs and penalties on $60 billion [that is now up to $250B if Beijing chooses to fight back] in Chinese imports and to take a tougher stance on the vast and lucrative trade relationship between the two countries. The report outlines in blunt terms how intellectual property — everything from product designs and sensitive data to general know-how — has become a point of contention in global trade relations, joining longstanding areas of dispute like steel."

    Trump has never explained how the tariffs he imposed on China and the trade war he started will cause China to stop stealing our technology. The fact of the matter is, Trump is using tariffs as a weapon against China because he has totally failed as a negotiator in trade agreements. He does not create favorable trade deals. He destroys them.

    The fact of the matter is, to prevent the theft of technology requires better technology to stop the threat, not tariffs. Tariffs are useless in this regard. Tariffs make matters worse. Nations are not particularly fond of other nations that weaponize their trade practices. China is retaliating, not cooperating.

    The best we can say about the President's tariffs is that Putin is pleased with Trump's approach to the problem.
     
  5. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    The trade deficit is a misnomer. When Trump describes our trade deficit with China -- $375B, not $500B -- he is implying it is a monetary deficit. In other words, he is communicating to his base that we are losing on an annual basis $375B/year to our dreaded trade foe, China.

    Nothing could be farther from the truth. A few facts are in order.

    We have the largest economy in the world, nearly twice that of our nearest competitor, China. We have full employment. Because of our vibrant economy, far more consumer goods are sold in the U.S. than any other country, including China. Forbes reports that Americans spent $9.1B on Halloween last year.

    With that kind of consumer spending, it stands to reason we will run trade deficits with other individual nations. We buy a lot more than they do.

    With respect to China we are not losing $375B/year as Trump would have us believe.

    We are receiving goods for the $375/year, goods that play a significant role in our powerful economy.

    Trump likes to argue we are losing jobs because of the trade deficit.

    How is that possible? We have full employment.

    But his tariffs will cause us to lose jobs. The latest numbers from The Trade Partnership, a DC-based economics research firm, suggests that the impact will be even worse than originally estimated. Some 400,000 jobs will be lost, with 16 losses for every job created by the tariffs, the group said today. That’s more than three times the number of job losses it expected earlier. https://qz.com/1297697/trumps-steel-tariffs-will-cost-the-us-400000-jobs-says-economists-now/

    Trump's tariffs are a solution in search of a problem. We have the largest economy in the world, nearly twice that of our nearest competitor, China.

    [​IMG]

    These links helped with this report:
    https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...hUKEwj91teWodnaAhVYHGMKHamXBdwQ9QEwAHoECAAQLg
    http://www.industryweek.com/competitiveness/top-10-manufacturing-countries-2020
    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/worlds-biggest-economies-in-2017/
    http://www.dw.com/en/germany-expects-us-metals-tariffs-to-come-into-force-may-1/a-43545105
    http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/379417-industries-unite-in-battle-against-trumps-tariffs
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  6. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  7. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Conversing with onesrself usually means,
    1. There is no point to your rant because it is too scattered to possibly give a response.
    2. Nobody cares.
    3. The op is bored and wants to draw attention to him/herself/alphabet self.


    I give this a #1 with a strong lean toward #3
     
  8. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    Trump's cure for our trading problems, if we have a problem, are his tariffs and the trade wars with China, Canada, Mexico, and the 28 countries of the EU. This can be likened to curing a blister by cutting off the finger.

    If there is a problem for the largest economy in the world, by far, that has full employment and consumer confidence at a 17-year high. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/29/consumer-confidence-may.html

    One thing is for sure, though. Putin is enormously pleased with Trump's solution to the problem. The two may huddle up in July after the World Cup. Putin will no doubt tell Trump how to best piss off May, Macron, Merkel and the rest of the free world's leaders when Trump visits the UK and attends the NATO summit, just as he did the last time these leaders met.

    For more info on the Trump/Putin summit see https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/21/politics/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-meeting/index.html
     
  9. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Canada isn't a threat to national security. Even with free trade with them, we are far better off. They have a higher minimum wage, and stricter labor laws, and higher business taxes. This is why no one really outsources to Canada.

    The reason companies import things from them is because they have much higher quality products, with prices being about the same thanks to business subsidies. Manufactures are not allowed to undercut product quality like they are here in the US.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  10. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    The reason we are first in our economy is due to our Constitution, our government, and our free market system with competition. But over many years our leaders have given in to unfair trade agreements to help out other countries. That has resulted in a huge loss of our manufacturing plants which are vital to any countries national security. Now Trump is saying we only want fair trade and the spoiled foreign countries have their noses out of joint. Trump has a plan to make America great again. He is right, the people know he is right, and the leaders of foreign countries know he is right.
     
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  11. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Not a dread to me. It is past time to reverse the long time protectionism of our trading partners.
     
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  12. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    So the stock market is reacting out of fear....gee, that never happens...(sarcasm)
     
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  13. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Let’s say the back and forth on tariffs results in better trade deals and we end up with lower tariffs across the board and we are successful. As a result the stock market soars to record highs. Will you be creating threads to give President Trump credit?

    Answer: No, because some child in Somalia did not get what they wanted for Christmas and you will be busy posting about how it is all President Trump 's fault.
     
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  14. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have explained it before. it is a matter of having control of our vital resources. We cannot count on Canada not having other priorities when we need our steel.
     
  15. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    What really gets my goat, the GOP is the free trade party. They hate protective tariffs. Trump came up with these tariffs on March 8. The Republicans have acted like sheep, and they have done nothing. They talk about what a terrible idea this is. They worry about what this will do to the economy. But that's it. Just talk.

    They aren't Republicans. They are members of Trump's herd, and that I clearly do not understand. Trump is erratic and incompetent. He has brought shame on the GOP with his immigration policy that detains children from their parents and he just torpedoed Republican immigration legislation in the House that he earlier agreed to sign.

    And still they do nothing. Trump is the reason the Republicans will lose in November, and they refuse to override him. That is ludicrous.
     
  16. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    We do have control over our vital resources. Declaring Canada a threat to our national security and launching a trade war with her has nothing to do with our vital resources.

    Under what circumstances would that happen? WWIII?

    Canada is not our only supplier of steel. We have a number of sources.

    Most important, did you see the chart showing the dominance of the American economy? We can do anything we want to do. The fact that we allowed our steel and aluminum industry to lapse is our fault, and we can do something about it whenever we have the desire. That is why Trump's reasoning is flawed.

    But then, Trump is not concerned about what the American economy can do. As I have shown and in violation of the principles of his own party, Trump is attempting to undermine the American economy and isolate the U.S.

    This fact speaks for itself. The Dow has erased all of its gains for the year and has posted an eight-day losing streak, its longest since March 2017. Fortunately, that slide ended today, but the problem has not gone away. Adding to our misery, the EU's retaliatory tariffs begin today. Trump's trade wars have just begun.

    Trump's response to the EU's tariffs? More tariffs, of course. “If these Tariffs and Barriers are not soon broken down and removed, we will be placing a 20% Tariff on all of their cars coming into the U.S. Build them here!” Trump wrote.

    You agree with this?
     
  17. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It could be anything. They might be involved in a different crisis than ours. It is simply a bad idea to have to rely on critical materials over which you have no control.
    We get steel from Canada as well as other countries. We have lost our ability to process steel. We need to get that capability back. The trade war is designed to increase our capability to manufacture steel. If we can get less expensive steel from Canada or any where else, we will never get back our capability. We ship large amounts of scrap iron all over the world because we no longer have the capability to process it at competitive prices.
     
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  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not for the Rust Belt. That's why Trump was elected.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  20. Russell Hellein

    Russell Hellein Well-Known Member

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    I am a commie liberal and I have been waiting for this since Reagan.

    Obviously not everyone dreads this, most probably support it. The market economic view that permanently stagnating wages, getting rid of most your industrial base, and soaring disparity are good things are not shared by most. And this has defined America in the free trade era (that is since 1981).

    This is just the start.
     
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  21. Russell Hellein

    Russell Hellein Well-Known Member

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    Supporters of free trade just don't get it.

    upload_2018-6-22_21-20-46.png upload_2018-6-22_21-20-48.png

    upload_2018-6-22_21-22-9.jpeg
     
  22. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    Or it was a matter of competition. Equal or better products at lower cost, mainly labor costs. That's not the fault of our leaders. That is what is called free enterprise.

    Well, things can't be too bad. As I have shown, we have the largest economy in the world, nearly twice that of nearest competitor, China. We have full employment, and the consumer confidence index is the highest in 17 years.

    Regarding manufacturing, Global Manufacturing Competitiveness Index, showing that the United States is the second most competitive manufacturing economy after China. What’s more, global manufacturing executives predict that by 2020, the United States will be the most competitive manufacturing economy in the world.http://fortune.com/2016/03/31/united-states-manufacturing-china/

    Yes, Trump has come up with a solution in search of a problem. In the meantime, The Dow has erased all of its gains for the year and has posted an eight-day losing streak, its longest since March 2017. Fortunately, that slide ended today, but the problem has not gone away. Adding to our misery, the EU's retaliatory tariffs begin today. Trump's trade wars have just begun.

    Trump's response to the EU's tariffs? More tariffs, of course. “If these Tariffs and Barriers are not soon broken down and removed, we will be placing a 20% Tariff on all of their cars coming into the U.S. Build them here!” Trump wrote.

    You honestly think that is smart? Quit believing all you hear from Trump. Haven't you heard? He lies like a rug. He no longer knows the difference between reality and his fantasies. He says whatever is convenient at the time.Then he may change his mind the next day or the next week.

    Look at the facts.
     
  23. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    So, this mythical crisis "could be anything" and it may or may not happen, and it is not likely to happen anytime soon. And upon this we should base our national defense strategy with multiple trade wars with multiple nations now. Is that what you are saying? Well, that is what Trump is saying and that is lunacy.

    I agree with your last statement, but multiple trade wars is not the answer.

    Exactly, and we can do that. We just have to put our mind to it. That is what I said.

    Did you read my entire post? You left out an important part, the part where for every steel manufacturing job we save with protective tariffs, we lose 16 jobs. Automobile manufacturing comes to mind. Again, tariffs are not the answer.

    I am not going to repeat myself again.
     
  24. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another photo with fake news captions.

    How long will this keep going on ?

    We will use two separate sources, fake news CNN who uses anonymous sources as usual and the British Independent that names names.

    Here's what was really happening in that photo of Trump at the G7
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/11/politics/trump-photo-g7/index.html

    Donald Trump gives his account of infamous G7 photo with Angela Merkel and other world leaders
    Scene in fact depicts the group 'waiting for final documents' after changes US president requested, he says
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...y-summit-hostile-interpretation-a8394986.html


    [​IMG]

    Notice who's the alpha male in the room...
    The guy who has a chair while all of the other world leaders have to stand.

     
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  25. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That will not happen unless their is profit in the steel industry. Right now there is none because it is cheaper to get our steel overseas.
    That assumes that the trade wars will go on forever. It won't. At some point the countries will come to an agreement.
     

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