The Fallacy of the dodge, That's an Appeal to Authority!

I think you need to examine your timeline. I have NEVER addressed the time period you keep referencing around March of 2020. Don’t you remember that the CDC was recommending against ALL masks for community spread in March of 2020. March of 2020 is completely IRRELEVANT to ANY of my claims.

The links I have provided you show that by December 2020 there was an OVERSUPPLY of N95 masks. From this point on, under Trump and under Biden, any claim by the CDC, NIH, or any hospital that N95s were scarce was an outright lie. Period. Not debatable.

Too much egg nog? You don’t realize that March 2020 when you mention Trump invoking defense production came 9 months before December 2020 when masks were no longer scarce, but in oversupply? I’m not a fan of the lies about masks told before December 2020. But the LIE I am talking about here is the LIE masks were scarce after December 2020. The lie that was repeated until September 2021. What happened in March 2020 is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to this discussion.

You seriously don’t know December comes after March EVERY YEAR?

 

If there were no shortage in March of 2020, why did Trump use the Defense Production Act in order to ensure 3M company masks were kept in the USA and made available to FEMA and others?

Let's remember that Trump was fundamentally opposed to using the Defense Production Act unless it was seriously necessary - unless it was clear that free market capitalism couldn't solve the problem.

The national supply of masks was drained down by Trump. It was low by the end of the Obama administration, due to flu epidemics here and abroad at that time. Obama put in place a plan for increasing that supply. Trump KILLED THAT. So, the continuing low level of need kept drawing down our supply. Also, much of US mask manufacturing had been terminated for reasons of competition from other countries. The natural flow of free market capitalism is designed to NOT have factories making stuff for which there is no clear need, and rebuilding our national supply of masks was not seen as need by the Trump administration.

We were at a low ebb in mask supply by December of 2020, when the COVID virus started showing up in numbers. And, we definitely did NOT have an adequate supply at that time.

Thus, we got mask policy that was essentially oriented to saving the lives of our healthcare workers.

 

I have NEVER CLAIMED THERE WAS NO MASK SHORTAGE IN MARCH OF 2020. EVER. NOT ONCE IN ALL MY TIME ON PF. If you think I have you go find it and QUOTE ME!

Listen up. My claim that is documented in the links I have provided you is that the MASK SHORTAGE ENDED IN DECEMBER OF 2020.

March of 2020 is irrelevant to my claim. Completely irrelevant.

Completely irrelevant. Free markets DID solve the problem. By the end of 2020 there were MILLIONS of masks sitting on warehouse shelves nobody would buy. Hospitals refused to purchase them and the public didn’t have access to them because they could not be sold on Amazon or advertised on any Google platform by direction of the CDC. That is all documented in the links I supplied you.

All the above is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to my argument. My argument is the CDC should not have lied about mask availability after there was an OVERSUPPLY.

Nope. There were plenty of masks by December 2020. Companies making NIOSH approved masks in the US were stockpiling masks, laying off workers, and facing bankruptcy by February 2021. Even the New York Times knew about the surplus. I’ve given you this before but here it is again.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...alth/covid-masks-china-united-states.amp.html

And.

And.

You literally know NONE of the facts but prattle aimlessly about March of 2020 and “policy”.

No. You got bald faced lies. The CDC and NIH told you there was a shortage when there was OVERSUPPLY. Hospitals lied and said they couldn’t find masks but they had access to NIOSH certified N95 masks made in the United States in factories inspected and certified BY THE CDC. They lied to their employees and told them they couldn’t get masks when mask companies were actively marketing masks to hospitals that hospitals refused to buy.

I can’t believe people defend this travesty. It’s like you people WANT to be lied to. You like lies that killed thousands of Americans. You even like lies that killed many healthcare workers in hospitals that refused to by US made masks.

 

Thought I’d better provide some evidence for my claim December 2020 came AFTER March of 2020. I have provided you links to great sources for all my other claims, so to be consistent here you go.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicp...do-we-read-in-english-from-left-to-right/amp/

And since you like government sources!
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/sc...adingviewing/Pages/litfocusconceptsprint.aspx

And now that we have established in English (the approved language of PF) text is presented and read left to right and top to bottom, here’s the big reveal!




March of 2020 DID come before December of 2020! I didn’t just make it up! Perhaps I DO know what I’m talking about as all my information is documented and verifiably true!

 

There are a whole list of logical fallacies.

One of them is the 'appeal to authority' fallacy.

The problem I encounter with debaters on this forum and elsewhere is that those who sometimes counter an argument with "that's an appeal to authority logical fallacy" believing that they have successfully offered a valid counter argument sometimes fail to understand the correct application of that logical fallacy.

Just because someone uses an authority to support an argument doesn't automatically rebuke the argument.

"Appeal to authority" only becomes a logical fallacy when the argument is resting solely on the appeal to authority.

Even then, it doesn't prove it's wrong, just as much as it doesn't prove it is right, it only suggests that it might be right, because, as you say, an appeal to authority is better than an appeal to ignorance (or an unsubstantiated opinion).

That's altogether a different animal that using an appeal to authority to support one's argument, but not resting the veracity of the argument solely to that authority.

So, I can argue X is true, because Y said so, who is an expert.

That would be the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

Again, it doesn't prove it's true, it only suggests it might be true because an appeal to authority is better than a naked opinion or an appeal to ignorance.

but, if I argued X is true, based on W data, and F data, and experts Y and Z have corroborated X in a peer reviewed paper, blah blah, I have a stronger argument than than "X is true solely because expert Y said so".

 

I'm sensing some history I'm wandering into here. That said an appeal to authority is a pretty clear type of fallacy. This should especially be easy to counter if you have advanced education. You the protocols to follow to avoid biases and you especially know not to go outside your field of expertise and expect the same level of deference. As has often been teased, advancing in academia involves studying more and more about less and less.

The easiest way for most laypersons to understand this and it relates to something they've likely experienced in their background is the practice of medicine. Each doctor clearly understands their boundaries and refuses to step on the toes of the others. They also are never strident in their proclamations and often slather their language in ranges or potential outcomes.

My own wife is going through treatment for breast cancer. She is always frustrated. The surgeon will not at all speak in the domain of the oncologist. The oncologist will not comment on the work of the surgeon. They all give ranges involving percentages. They speak with IF THEN type statements.... if we get past THIS then THAT can be investigated.

So if you have someone claiming expertise and they speak in strident statements, and they speak well beyond their level of expertise or beyond their field, that is an automatic red flag.

You can say all that but it also follows that an immunologist is not a sociologist, is not a behavioral economist and not an expert at mathematical modeling, etc.

So can a virologist tell us the best way to prevent the spread of a virus? Absolutely. Can the virologist recommendation to close all family restaurants for 6-12 months be immune to concerns that throwing away the life work of so many people might bring about increases in suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, poverty, etc. Of course the virologist has no expertise there and the recommendation should be fully investigated by others with the appropriate expertise. We should weigh all the pros vs cons in each solution.

Can a virologist tell us that masks can be effective to stop transmission. They can. Can that same virologist weigh the risk to benefits or wearing that mask for nearly two years against the important FIRST FIVE concerns of childhood development where some children have a window of opportunity that closes and never opens again afterward? They can't do that at all.

While this is true part of that is also limiting. We've all met people who can be brilliant in one area but can seem to manage the minimum basics for human competence in other areas. If you are a brilliant physicist but can easily get talked into a bad mortgage, or can't generate small talk to go on a date, that is something to consider as well. The point is being an expert doesn't stop you from being a mess. In fact sometimes it can guarantee it. The profound focus can generate negative outcomes in other areas.

Except anyone who has such expertise would also know the history of Ivermectin, would know it is used in humans and even if they didn't endorse it for treatment of COVID would have been tools at their disposal to express this disagreement then "Dude, you're eating horse paste."

In fact if those are the only tools the "real scientist" has then by default they've raised a red flag that they should be second guessed. No one who can write a thesis should have to resort to bumpersticker reasoning and insults to communicate their point.

If that video represents your reasoning, then your reasoning is an unqualified joke.

 

Well said!

 

I'm really not sure of what all you have claimed.

But, the claims about "lying" have certainly included mask policy.

Early policy decisions concerning masks were made in recognition of the shortage of the supply of masks, especially in early 2020.

Trump recognized that shortage as can be seen by his decision to invoke the Defense Production Act to solve mask shortages that HE admitted existed in March 2020.

No supply could be considered adequate if we had run out in very early 2020, only a few short months after the arrival of COVID.

One can also read about the difficulties that hospitals were having in finding and purchasing masks - leaving them with their own policy decisions to require masks to be used FAR longer than medical science considered safe.

 

Yes I know. Because you keep claiming I’ve said things I’ve NEVER said. You can’t come up with quotes of me saying them. You won’t read what I’ve actually posted on the subject. You instead keep posting information that is irrelevant to ANY claim I’ve ever made.

When the CDC is testing and certifying hundreds of millions of N95 masks and at the same time saying masks are unavailable that is a LIE. When manufacturers are going bankrupt with hundreds of millions of masks gathering dust on their shelves and the CDC is recommending AGAINST the use of those masks and saying they don’t exist, that is a LIE. When hospitals have mask manufacturers begging them to buy their NIOSH approved N95 masks made to higher specs than many Chinese masks but refuse to buy them and tell their employees they can only have one mask per week because there is a shortage, that is a LIE.

Mask policy a year after Covid hit is not “early mask policy”. Take your strawman elsewhere. You are becoming boring in your inability to distinguish between March of 2020 and December of 2020.

You can read that Covid vaccines have killed 60,000 people. That isn’t true. But people believe it. You can read that hospitals couldn’t buy masks in December of 2020 or May of 2021 or July of 2021. That isn’t true. But you believe it.

 

True. I haven't looked back, but I very well could have used Dec 2020 when I meant Dec 2019, when COVID arrived.

InforWars and others who try to pitch that there were lies have pointed to early 2020.

The point remains that in early 2020, after COVID arrived, we went into a period of serious mask shortages.

Trump recognized that and responded with his use of the Defense Production Act in March 2020.

One can read of the problems hospitals were having in the first major spikes - problems of NOT being able to acquire masks.

 

I am not Infowrs. I use reviewed studies and verifiable facts. I’ve presented you information from the New York Times, not Infowars. Direct quotes from mask manufacturers, healthcare professionals, and others.

No. That is NOT the point. The point is the mask shortage ENDED BY DECEMBER 2020. By early 2021 there was a HUGE oversupply of N95 masks. So many were manufactured without buyers mask makers were laying off employees and considering bankruptcy. This is not my opinion. This is a fact.

It is also a FACT the CDC knew about these masks because the CDC inspects the factories that make them and test the masks and issue NIOSH certifications for them. It is also a FACT the CDC recommended AGAINST Americans buying and using these same masks until September of 2021. I have documented all this in the links I’ve provided you. It is also a FACT that mask manufacturers lobbied hospitals to buy their masks and hospitals refused, preferring to short their employees instead of buying NIOSH certified domestically produced masks.

Now I understand you like this policy, but I don’t. It’s anti science, anti human life, and anti logic. Yep, it was policy. But it was BAD policy. It was EVIL policy. And NOBODY can defend it using facts, statistics, or logic. All anyone has EVER used to defend it is fallacy.

 

I haven't tried to pin anything on YOU.

My point is that there absolutely WAS a serious shortage of masks by the time COVID was taking off in America - like Q1, 2020.

You have not identified any lie yet.

The fact that there were masks in production somewhere, including the USA, does not mean that they weren't in short supply.

"Short supply" means you need a whole lot more. It doesn't mean there are zero.

We can SEE that a whole lot more were needed by looking at the moves of Trump by late Q1, 2020, by looking at what was happening in our hospitals, etc.

FEMA believed there were not enough masks. They were actually interdicting shipments to hospitals - so that hospitals did not get what they had ordered.

There is all kinds of evidence of a consequential mask shortage.

And there are a few important reasons why that shortage developed as I pointed out earlier.

 

I HAVE NEVER POSTED ANYTHING ABOUT Q1 2020 in this context. Ever. Please stop with the strawman fallacy.

I posted the New York Times piece to you last night with information on oversupply of masks, refusal of hospitals to buy them, and how Amazon and Google were preventing sales to Americans by request of the CDC. If you don’t think the information in it or my other links I’ve provided you is correct now is the time for YOU TO PRESENT SOME EVIDENCE for your claims. Not unsubstantiated opinions.

I have presented evidence masks were no longer in short supply after December 2020. You have offered nothing but unsubstantiated opinions. Do better.

 

That is the period that resulted in the policy that InforWars and other Republicans promote as lies.

I haven't been trying to pin anything on you individually.

The issue here, as I believe it to be, is that there is a general view among a certain crowd that Fauci, CDC and possibly others lied about masks in early 2020 when they set the early policy on masks.

 

I care nothing for crowds or for popularity, I loathe the Republican Party, and what little I’ve seen of Infowars made me laugh.

That said, Fauci, the CDC, and others lied to the American people repeatedly about numerous aspects of masks from the beginning of the pandemic onwards. They have never corrected any of the lies that I’m aware of.

The lies told about masks that Infowars and Republicans point to are easy pickings. While I disagree with all lies from public health officials, those early lies were much less damaging by directly killing Americans. They eroded trust in public health and that still has an effect on acceptance of vaccination etc. But the lies I’m talking about here were directly responsible for deaths because cloth masks are NOT as good as N95 and equivalent masks no matter if Dr. Fauci claims they are or not. The CDC and NIH and hospitals etc. telling Americans to wear cloth masks AFTER N95 masks were readily available killed average Americans. Lots of them. To deny this fact is to deny N95 masks are more efficacious at preventing spread of Covid than cloth masks. If you deny N95 masks are superior there was NEVER any reason to save such masks for healthcare workers in early 2020.

There was a mask shortage in the US in early 2020. I’m on record on PF in numerous places saying so. It was wrong however for Dr. Fauci and Trump's surgeon general to tell Americans they didn’t need masks in March of 2020. It was a lie or abject incompetence because all evidence at that point showed masks were a good mitigation practice. Other countries at the same time that had access to the same information as our public health “experts” were recommending masks to their citizens while our “experts” were telling people not to use them or that it wasn’t necessary. Yes, the lie was supposedly to help healthcare workers but it’s still a lie. And it turned out healthcare wouldn’t buy masks after they were available anyway so it was kind of a stupid lie with no upside but a lot of downside.

But to recap, my example in this thread of the lies about mask shortages after there were too many masks is a separate issue from silly things people including Democratic politicians said about masks at the beginning of the pandemic. Telling Americans to not buy and use masks that were piling up by the hundreds of millions while manufacturers were laying off employees was a diabolical lie resulting directly in untold thousands of deaths. Democrats, Republicans, progressives, socialists, communists, libertarians, anarchists, voluntarists and classical liberals should all be able to uniformly criticize this policy.

 

And, I disagree that Dr. Fauci lied about masks.

 

Oh. You believe cloth masks are as good as N95s and equivalent masks? Interesting. Of course I disagree but I’m open to evidence as always.

 

The issue I've stuck to is the issue of lying by Dr. Fauci or the CDC.

I don't know of such a lie.

As for mask effectiveness, I'd point out that there has been real study of that issue involving testing to determine what kind of masks and what mask materials are better whether they are different enough to make a difference.

Our early policy on masks allowed people to wear stretchy material, "gators", bandannas, masks with valves (!!), and other materials available to anyone who wants to sew a mask at home.

In many cases, those mask types are still considered sufficiently effective by various state and local policy bodies.

 

Yes, you and others consistently support outright lies by both.

You do. I’ve just spent several posts educating you on the details of one by the CDC that Fauci supported. It would be more accurate if you said you support the lie. You are clearly aware of it.

See if you can give a straight answer to this question. If cloth masks are as good as surgical (N95, ASTM 3, etc.) masks, why were the N95s “saved” for healthcare workers? Why didn’t hospitals just hit up Hobby Lobby for a few yards of cloth and make their own masks? If we didn’t really know there was a difference, why make such a big deal about healthcare workers needing all the surgical grade masks in March of 2020 and even into the fall and winter of 2021?

I found it hilarious to listen to Dr. Fauci say things like “people should not be walking around with masks” and “masks are important for someone who’s infected to prevent them from infecting someone else” but otherwise might just make people feel a little better and then in the same interview say “healthcare providers need them and people that are ill”. Healthcare providers need them for what? To feel better or to keep from infecting someone else? LOL

I just can’t believe our educational system has produced a society where 97% of people don’t just bust up laughing. I mean there are so many contradictions in those statements one MUST be a lie. Two completely contradictory statements can’t both be true in a circumstance like this.

Yes, I remember when I was self quarantined a PF member telling me I needed to wear a mask (while I’m by myself I guess) and recommended a valved model because it makes it much easier to breathe. Well, yes it would. LOL

Then those state and local bodies are not serious about Covid mitigation. Their policy has other goals, public and individual health not included. Just like public and individual health was not the priority of the mask policies put forth by the CDC or Dr. Fauci. I guess that’s fine if public and individual health are far down your list of priorities, but health is my first priority. That’s why I’ve spent hours and hours on PF trying to get people to consider masking behaviors that will actually protect themselves and their families. This is not about politics to me. I’m not affiliated with any party. I think politicizing Covid is absurd. The same bad policies existed under both Trump and Biden. What matters to me is that accurate information is available so that people can make good decisions about health. You can’t make good decisions about health if you take advice from known liars. There is no value from a pure health standpoint in believing things that are false. Defending lies by the CDC does not help anyone be healthy.

 

We were losing healthcare workers at a rate significantly higher than the general public.

Again, there were not enough masks in early 2020, and as I understand it, the policy was made to favor those who were at greatest risk of exposure and who were critical to the care of those who contracted COVID.

We had healthcare workers who had retired coming back to save people's lives even though they were in the highest risk group themselves due to age.

We had hospitals that didn't have enough masks for healthcare workers to get a new mask more than once a week - ridiculously lower than medical standards.

At that time, there were people working to create machines that could clean used masks.

When healthcare workers are contracting COVID during their efforts to save the lives of those infected, this topic is not your political joke of the day.

You are ignoring that your objection has been to policy, and that the capabilities of different mask types wrt COVID virus communication in the public was not as well known as it is today. Also, remember that policy is only as effective as the public can be encouraged to follow the policy, and even just communicating the policy is hard enough that simple terms are absolutely required. Masks are a method of reducing communication, and can not be interpreted as absolute. Policy management is STILL a major problem on this line, as
clearly demonstrated by the inability of so many people to accept the proven efficacy of the vaccines we have.

I don't believe the statements you point to were intended to be interpreted as each being the sole answer to all mask or disease communication questions.

Yes - there is a LOT of total crap out there about masks. And, your example shows how absolutely crazy it can be.

I'm curious what YOU actually believe US policy should have been. Do you believe there should have been more focus on differentiating good vs. bad masks? Should policy have required certain fabric types (like certain papers or cloths), should there have been restrictions on how many layers a cotton mask would require to be considered a mask? Should bandannas, gators and valved masks been explicitly excluded?

In other words, how long a description of what constitutes a "mask" do you think the US public was ready to follow? After all, that IS a critical question in policy making.

I absolutely agree that state and local government as well as various groups (Republicans, for instance) had objectives that had NOTHING to do with the health or defense of America against this disease.

And, those who did care were substantially limited in what they could accomplish, BECAUSE of the intolerance to ANY rational policy fostered in the American public.

For example, the very idea that wearing a mask is overridden by "freedom" is so unbelievably STUPID that it's just hard to contemplate.

 

Not when Fauci made his infamous remarks I’ve quoted. When he told Americans there was no need to wear masks and masks were ineffective at protecting the wearer (with healthcare workers being the magical exception) there had been no deaths of healthcare workers. The first Covid death in a healthcare worker wouldn’t occur for another 2 weeks.

Yep, there was certainly a shortage the first part of 2020. That’s why it was not a lie to claim N95 masks were scarce then. It became a lie when masks were no longer scarce and were in fact in oversupply.

The lie in March of 2020 was that Americans shouldn’t wear masks and that masks aren’t very effective while at the same time claiming healthcare workers needed them even though masks might only make uninfected people “feel” better.

I see you are unable to answer my questions.

It’s never been my joke. When you go to a standup venue and the comedian says something silly and everyone laughs, the joke is provided by the comedian. Fauci was the one making silly illogical statements. It’s his joke.

LOL. If effectiveness of types wasn’t known, they wouldn’t have tried to save a certain type for healthcare workers. As I said, it’s sad our educational system has completely removed the capability of critical thought from Americans.

The main problem is the lies. It’s very hard to get people to follow policy based on verifiably incorrect information and premises.

You don’t think the CDC specifically telling people to NOT buy and use N95 masks that were in oversupply was misinterpreted? Interesting. When Fauci gave the infamous 60 Minutes interview where the interviewer specifically asked Fauci to be clear so there would be no misunderstanding and he said masks were basically ineffective except for maybe stopping a droplet or making people feel better is misinterpreted?

In a few words, I think policy should have been based on empirical evidence. It should never have been based on lies.

If we wanted to save the best masks for healthcare, fine. Buy them up with tax dollars or printed money. But don’t lie and tell people masks only make you feel better when epidemiologists in other countries are recommending masks based on existing evidence. It only makes you look stupid or dishonest or both. Not the look you want as a public health official.

When N95 masks are piling up on warehouse shelves and manufacturers can’t find buyers stop telling retailers not to sell or advertise N95 masks. It’s very simple. Change the CDC website so instead of telling people to not buy or use N95 masks, tell people to buy and use US made NIOSH certified N95 masks. Very simple. Just be HONEST.

I see it as unnecessary to mandate mask material. Just be honest and tell people N95 and equivalent masks are preferred and to buy snd use them when available instead of telling people NOT to use them when available.

You seem all teary eyed about healthcare workers. Perhaps better policy would have been for the CDC to pressure hospitals to buy widely available N95s and make sure their employees had access to them. Or buy the masks with taxpayer money or printed money and deliver them to hospitals and tell them to distribute them to employees.

It would have been nice if mask policy included recommendations on wearing masks in the places most likely to be infected instead of mandating their use in places where infection risk was almost zero. You know, recommendations based on science, not in denial of science.

All we needed to have done was be honest and many anti maskers today would not be anti maskers. All we needed to do was be honest about what actual supplies were and let people buy good masks when available. It’s not complicated or confusing. What is complicated and confusing is policy based on lies and based on direct denial of science. Policy based on lies kills people unnecessarily and leads to mistrust of the institutions telling the lies.

Very little policy from National on down to local has been based on science. Mostly because National incompetence and dishonesty trickled down. The hospitals refusing to buy US made N95 masks when available is one example. They could have figured out on their own that telling people masks were available was prudent when masks were piling up without buyers. Hospitals and local health departments could have issued better recommendations in defiance of the CDC. It would have saved lives. But they preferred to appeal to the authority of the CDC even when the CDC was lying and denying science.

That’s a valid criticism but it cuts both ways. For example, many including myself, wished for policy that used a systems approach to the pandemic. Including strengthening the collective immune system of the American people through recommendations on general health (Vitamin D supplementation, exercise, proper hydration, proper sleep patterns etc.). But the CDC and other public health entities were opposed to even education on the subject. The first few times I informed PF members that being obese increases likelihood of infection I was met with incredulousness and ridicule. This is crazy. Public health entities should be educational in nature and pass this kind of information on to citizens. People shouldn’t have to learn these things from some farmer on a forum. Public health entities are not about public health. That is obvious. So blaming Republicans is pretty narrow criticism when the most educated among us who work in bureaucracies intended to educate and inform Americans on health had no interest in rational policy.

It’s no more STUPID than telling people the best masks for Covid mitigation and personal protection were unavailable when they were in oversupply. It’s no more stupid than giving obese people “freedom” to be Covid super-spreaders. You want public health entities to have the freedom to tell outright lies that killed likely hundreds of thousands of Americans, but complain about personal rights? If you allow freedom to lie and kill thousands how can you criticize individual freedom to expose a handful of people? We are back to where this thread started. Appeal to authority. It’s OK for authorities to lie and you have no interest in curtailment of their freedom to do so. What they say is true to you even though it conflicts with known facts. But you are upset by individuals who wish to have rights of their own.

 

Yet, THAT is the statement that those who hate Fauci cite.

Since then, the disease spread, the deaths, the effectiveness of masks, the availability of masks, and quite possibly many other factors changed what the best policy should be.

I just do not see you providing evidence of lies or recognizing the issues of policy decisions.

I'd point out that Fauci works for the administration and is NOT free to declare policy that is rejected by that administration. These decisions are ALL group decisions and public rejection by any of those involved in making the policy is not acceptable.

In fact, that kind of subversion prevents there being any possible positive outcome. It has to be avoided or there really is no way of setting policy.

 

None of the bolded even if true (we knew the effectiveness of different masks that’s why we wanted healthcare to have the best) is justification for telling lies. If you support such lies you forfeit any right to complain about lies by Republicans, Trump, or anyone else in relation to Covid or anything else.

Yes you did. I documented the oversupply of masks. I documented dates when the CDC recommended against masks that were in oversupply and how they stopped retailers from selling them. In my links there was documentation of how the CDC was certifying and testing the very masks they claimed didn’t exist. I documented hospitals refusing to buy available masks while simultaneously telling employees none were available.

What we HAVEN’T seen is any evidence from you to the contrary. All we have seen from you is UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION. That is all anyone has ever offered. Nobody has ever offered evidence any scientific evidence existed showing cloth masks were as good as surgical grade masks. Yet I have presented Fauci in his own words in an interview with one of the most respected journalists in America saying they are equivalent in July of 2020. Nobody has ever shown any evidence of a mask shortage after December 2020. I have offered evidence from the New York Times, direct quotes from mask manufacturers, and quotes from epidemiologist showing masks were plentiful by February of 2021 but the CDC was still restricting retailers from selling them. Nobody has ever offered evidence the CDC did not actively campaign against N95 use up until September 10, 2021. I have shown evidence they in fact did. Nobody has ever offered evidence the CDC didn’t know about the oversupply of masks. I’ve shown details of the process of NIOSH certification where the CDC itself inspects factories, tests masks, and certifies them at the same time claiming the masks they are certifying and testing don’t exist.

It’s seldom I agree with @Patricio Da Silva on anything, but his post in this thread is superb. It’s post #30 and the appeal to authority fallacy he describes is exactly the appeal to authority fallacy you are using here.

Yes, I clearly stated this policy of lies has been identical under both Trump and Biden. The fact both administrations approve of lies doesn’t make false information true, nor does it make it good policy. More appeal to authority fallacy from you.

So your argument is universal acceptance of bad policy based on lies that kills thousands is better than some portion of policy makers telling the truth? Wild.