The fraudulent claim of air and the Apollo 15 flag.

Discussion in 'Moon Landing' started by Betamax101, Dec 31, 2015.

You are viewing posts in the Conspiracy Theory forum. PF does not allow misinformation. However, please note that posts could occasionally contain content in violation of our policies prior to our staff intervening.

  1. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Three posts and all supporting the spammer. I smell a rat.

    Your claim is hogwash, the Apollo program used off the shelf Nylon flags because they were durable and very light.
     
  2. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
  3. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your rationale for that statement is that cars and appliances were better quality and heavier?

    The flags were made by this company:-

    http://www.annin.com/about.asp

    Are you claiming that as part of their corporate policy they decided to make them worse quality? Your claim is just idle speculation with nothing to support it whatsoever. To refute it we have the pressing need to limit weight for the lunar landing.


    Answer me some questions, because the person who you appear to be supporting has some personal tests:-

    1. Did China fake its spacewalk?
    2. Did the American Government carry out the 911 terrorist attacks?
    3. Did NASA fake the entire Apollo moon landing program?
     
  4. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I said you'd doctored your video in this post.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=362999&page=12&p=1065076608#post1065076608

    You responded with this in post #116.
    In the original video there were no missing frames. If you use the mouse to put the arrow by the pole in the second above video, you'll see that there's absolutely no movement of the pole.


    I'd also like to hear your analysis of this.

    Can't touch this (flag)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsFu5ouXQ4


    You destroyed your credibility a long time ago with your stands on these two issues.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=362999&page=2&p=1064028979#post1064028979
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=403884&page=2&p=1064900819#post1064900819

    Your rhetoric may sway a few viewers who don't take the time to look at that info closely but you won't sway any viewers who do.
     
  5. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I want to answer these too.
    Yes. China faked its spacewalk. The anomalies are clear.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=362999&page=2&p=1064028979#post1064028979

    The proof that the US government carried out the 9/11 attacks is as crushing as the proof that NASA faked the entire Apollo moon landing program.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=351109&page=12&p=1065652592#post1065652592
    http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-landing/347662-apollo-moon-missions-were-faked-studio.html
     
  6. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I know you did. Just because you are dishonest enough to do that, doesn't mean others will do that. My video has not been doctored whatsoever.

    A post that does nothing to bolster your claim.

    I have no idea what the heck you are talking about. The solution is extremely simple. All you need to do is isolate the two frames I used and pause the video as necessary. Take a screen print of each one and then use any number of online gif makers to show the movement. There seems little point in me saying that I give my word nothing has been altered, since you seem to be a very insincere person with apparently no integrity.

    Idiotic analysis. He makes no attempt to factor in the wide angled camera lens and arbitrarily positions his cartoon characters accordingly. But take care here. If you now claim that Dave Scott was actually 18 inches away from a path that struck the flag, we need to factor that in to the "trotting" video! Jarrah White, Shane Killian and one other guy all agree on their analyses that he was on a path that struck the flag, yet an obviously hostile ante-NASA youtube troll disagrees? Where is your power of critical thinking? Do you even have any?

    As before you make the same spam claims. My credibility is fine. When the judge of it is somebody who spends his entire life campaigning for moronic endeavours, I can rest easy. You seem to think that your useless opinion in both those examples actually means something.
     
  7. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28

    Do I think China faked its spacewalk? No, I don't think China would fake anything :)

    Fake China Olympics:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbcXDH-saU

    Fake China Olympics2:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...e-of-Chinas-athletes-lie-about-their-age.html

    Fake China Goods:
    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130381

    Fake Apple store:
    http://www.forbes.com/pictures/fi45eddmgk/this-is-not-a-real-apple-store/

    Fake Investigators:
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/99d8...igating-fake-chinese-goods-fake-investigators

    etc, etc, etc
     
  8. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Olympics incidents were freely admitted and aren't to be classed as deliberate subterfuge. Your other links are commercial fraud and enterprise prevalent in all societies.


    You didn't answer the 3 questions
    . I shall qualify the Chinese Spacewalk question, based on the evidence available do you think it was faked? Here is some assistance:-

    http://debunking-a-moron.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/chinese-spacewalks-part-1.html
     
  9. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Enough of your spam, everybody has seen your rubbish a thousand times. I was addressing the newbie so that we can see which camp he sits in. I find your reporting of your disturbing spamming at the basketball forum quite ridiculous. The idea that you are being censored is ridiculous.
     
  10. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    C'mon Beta - What with all the off-topic questions? You remind me of this bridge troll :)

    Bridge Troll:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPOyOM7wxlE
     
  11. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Perhaps you would like to take that up with Scott/Cosmored who at every opportunity asks these questions as his "credibility" test.
    It's perfectly simple, I asked you 3 questions that are used by the serial forum spammer to assess whether he dismisses everything you say. Ante up. There is a thread topical point to my questions. Scott regards your testimony as proof of his flag trotting crap, so I want to know whether or not he will dismiss it if you fail his test. If you pass his test, then suddenly you become the very suspicious new arrival who is a conspiracy theorist, offers nothing tangible and supports the resident spammer.

    I can see why you wouldn't want to answer, but please do so.
     
  12. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    OK, I think I get it: If I correctly answer the three questions I get to cross the bridge over to the side you are on: "Authority is the Truth Land." And if I don't answer correctly I will be thrown into the "Gorge of Conspiracy" Hmmm - ok, I'll give it a try... :)

    But first, let's address the statement that you made in post #3 of this thread:

    BETAMAX101 QUOTE: "In this video I show the original Apollo 15 flag moving for 30 seconds. Using Jarrah's 66% slowed down footage theory, that equates to 20 seconds. White then proceeds to run past his own flag several times, yet is only able to move his flag for 4-5 seconds. That equates to 6-7.5 seconds adjusted up 150%. With White's flag, there is a totally different billowing movement, a rapid stop, and indeed a much more aggressive motion. No gentle back and forth prolonged swaying as per Apollo 15 flag."

    and here is a quote from me, DESCARTES QUOTE: "I think I see the problem here: Jarrah used a flag that is a very low weight of material - and that's the problem. The flag has to have enough weight to overcome the effects of friction or it will just billow a little and not oscillate."

    You are comparing apples with oranges. You can't compare the motion of Jarrah's flag with the Apollo flag - Jarrah's flag is too flimsy.

    As Scott has stated: "Anyone can hang a piece of cloth and walk quickly by it as in the apollo 15 video - and that cloth will move just as we see in the video." This is true if we have sufficient weight of cloth. A silk scarf, for example, will pull toward the moving person but then will quickly stop because it is too light weight.

    You have made some very good observations - but you have drawn the wrong conclusions...

    It is very easy to duplicate the Apollo flag motion - you just have to use similar weight material...
     
  13. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am comparing the two incidents with flags. Quite how you determine that the Apollo 15 flag is heavier escapes me and your claim that this trotting by scenario is easy to do is a lie. "It looks like" is the common mantra of the conspiracy claimant. Now answer the 3 questions. I don't make judgements on anyone unless they wish to debate on a public forum, then their posts can rightly come under serious scrutiny.

    In addition to the 3 questions, answer how in any way possible, you can see miniscule motion of a flag in the split second you run past it from a distance of less than 1 foot? If I made that claim, I would rightly be told to support it with visible evidence.

    Edit: for my experiment, please advise on what material you think I should use!
     
  14. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I don't understand why you think that the "trotting by" scenario is difficult to do. If you are not good at "trotting" maybe "walking" or a "full gallup" would work if you are able :)

    Maybe you do not understand why the Apollo flag acts like it does in the video. The principle is named after Daniel Bernoulli who published it in his book Hydrodynamica in 1738. Here are a few videos that I think explain the principle well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fWSTXDQ8eE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z-qYcqKjMs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EO0utVf5aI

    And as for your "3 question test" I must admit to having some angst. I am afraid I may forever be banished to live in "The Gorge of Constant Peril"

    Bridge Troll:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPOyOM7wxlE

    And I think a bath towel or similar would be appropriate for your experiments...

    Good Luck!
     
  15. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Maybe I'm not making myself clear here. You come in support of something and neither you nor the original serially spammed claim has been filmed and put online. I pointed out that the chance of seeing any such movement as you ran past was ridiculously un-feasible. Which part of that is confusing you? How can you possibly observe such a tiny movement when trotting by and so close to the object? Apollo 15 flag movement is only noticeable after slowing it down and doing frame swaps! Answer please.

    Careful now. Citing a principle that is NOT observed in the Apollo 15 flag is not smart. A drop in pressure causes a movement towards not away from the cause. That was what was observed in my example!

    So at 1.19 in this video, one sees quite how far air is pushed by a large wing - an example of Bernoulli's principle:-

    [video=youtube;6UlsArvbTeo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UlsArvbTeo[/video]

    Do you have a comment on this? Or will you armwave it away with apples and oranges even though you highlighted this!

    A ridiculous comparison. I asked you what means you used to determine that the Apollo 15 flag was heavier. Answer please. It doesn't surprise me that you are a conspiracy theorist, as all you have done is support another such person.
     
  16. Descartes

    Descartes Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I am trying to understand what you are saying here, because like I said, I think that you are a very observant person. Yes, the Apollo flag movement would be difficult to see because the astronaut appears to be 3 or 4 feet from the flag so the pressure drop would be small and we only see a small movement of the flag - but even though it is a small movement it maintains for approximately 30 seconds. If you actually do the experiment, however, you can get a very large movement of the flag/cloth/towel depending how close you are - and all you have to do is look over your shoulder and you will see obvious movement of the flag/cloth/towel being drawn toward you. I have done this and the towel maintains movement for at least 30 seconds - just like the Apollo 15 flag. The Apollo flag movement is easy to see - c'mon - you don't need to do frame swaps. I would link the video but Scott has done that plenty of times...

    That is correct - and that is exactly what happens when a person walks quickly by a towel - Air moves along with the person and this creates an air flow parallel to the towel - this creates a slight pressure drop between the person and the towel - and the towel moves toward the person.

    The top of the wing would represent the side of the towel toward the trotting person. This is the side that has the increase air flow - and what happens to the top part of the wing in your example? Well, it is pulled upwards because of Bernoulli's Principle - just like the towel is pulled toward the moving person.

    [video=youtube;6UlsArvbTeo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UlsArvbTeo[/video]

    I am done with apples and oranges - I'm switching to plums and pears :)

    I already explained why I believe it was heavier

    I am just discussing a flag waving. There is nothing wrong with searching for truth...
     
  17. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ahh, so you are saying running past a flag moves it and this is because you see it afterwards? No problem with that at all, that is exactly what occurs. The problem that you seem to be missing is the following:-

    1. The spammer claims that the flag moves before he reaches it and that can be observed!
    2. He claims that the flag starts moving away as he approaches just like the Apollo 15 flag.

    See 2 above and give me your comments. Did you know the Apollo 15 flag begins by moving away from the astronaut? That is his major talking point.

    Ok, seems like we are done here, A towel is not a good comparison and the first movement is towards.

    And I asked you for more than just your "belief". Is that not reasonable? If anything White's flag looks heavier to me. But since I can't track down the source or weight of either, it is guesswork. One thing is certain, a towel is unfeasibly heavier than a nylon flag.

    Consider the possibility he kicked soil as he ran, that struck the pole. Consider the possibility that a small camera bloom caused the entire flag/pole/lens flares and parts of the right hand background to slightly shift right. Consider the possibility of ground vibration. Consider the possibility of static discharge in a vacuum.

    Discount a wall of air moving something away from it from at least a distance of over 4 feet and nearer 6feet!

    [video=youtube;GJ888vXaKNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ888vXaKNM[/video]
     
  18. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The nature of the movement is consistent with its having been hit by a wall of air. The corner of the flag moves the way it would if air hit it. There's no place where it looks like a particle impacted and pushed forward pulling the rest of the flag behind it.

    This video shows the movement that had started before he got close enough to touch the flag to be real movement.

    The flag that moved
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0


    There is no visible movement of the rod or pole as would be the case if ground vibration were the cause of the movement. The movement is not consistent with its having been caused by ground vibration. The movement is not coming from the rod or pole. The movement is consistent with its having been hit with a wall of air.

    If static electricity were the cause, the flag would move every time an astronaut got close to it. It wouldn't only move on one particular occasion when the movement was totally consistent with the atmosphere scenario. I've seen astronauts walking slowly close to flags in a way that wind wouldn't make the flag move without any flag movement. If you know of any other footage of a flag moving when an astronaut is standing close to it that would support the static electricity scenario, please post it.


    In post #40 you seemed pretty sure that he hit the flag with his elbow.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=438617&page=4&p=1065717818#post1065717818
    One minute you're sure his elbow hit it (even though the footage shows that the flag had already started moving before he got close enough to touch it), and the next minute you put forward other possible scenarios. Please make your position very clear.
     
  19. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The movement as he goes by is certainly caused by impact. Before he arrives, it cannot possibly be air - it is too far away.

    And the customary spam videos. It has been explained to that the two things we see need not be connected. Co-incidence. Not mutually exclusive. I am baffled at how dumb a person must be not to get that.

    Ignorance once more. The scenarios I put forward are for the small movement before he arrives at the flag. Once he goes past it, he strikes it with his elbow. Would you like me to summarise it kindergarten style?

    1. He kicks soil, it strikes the flagpole before he reaches it, because it travels faster than he does. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    2. It is a camera anomaly, the lens flares move, so does the flagpole and entire flag. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    3. His footsteps cause minor vibrations that judder the flagpole before he reaches it. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    4. Static electricity discharges against the flag before he reaches it. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.

    Since your posts demonstrate an ineptitude in almost every related subject, your bland observations and denial are dismissed. The flagpole moves, so does the entire flag and parts of the surface. All shift right.

    Anyone can do a frame grab and verify this. You won't because you won't be able to claim I doctored my video. Dishonesty seems quite rife amongst truther types. You have no credibility, you never did have.
     
  20. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    When the footage in another video besides yours is watched a frame at a time, the movement in your video is not there. The two videos are different.

    Apollo 15 flag waving
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y


    I don't see any two frames that show the pole in the position that you show.

    The Apollo 15 flag waving mystery - part 5
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4gbMT-Zs2Y


    You doctored your video.


    Any viewers who do this experiment at home will see that you are simply wrong.


    Viewers please watch this.

    The flag that moved
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0


    Anyone can see that you're just spouting technobabble. That is real movement. It is not camera bloom.


    I guess the whole argument boils down to this point.


    Apollo 15 flag waving
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y
    (2:35 time mark)


    Anyone who watches this will see that you're simply wrong.
    Initial Apollo 15 Flag Movement
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9qcL4LiUg


    The flag starts moving before he gets close enough to touch it.


    Hey Descartes, thanks for the support here.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=362999&page=2&p=1064028979#post1064028979
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=403884&page=2&p=1064900819#post1064900819
     
  21. frenat

    frenat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    So you keep claiming but for years you have been asked to do it and film it and have not so. Why? What are you hiding?
     
  22. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'd have to ask someone to help me. Anyway, it's so clear that it's not necessary.

    (from post #4)

    Tell us what your stand is. What do you say will happen when you trot by a flag at a forty five degree angle without touching it? Do you say it will behave differently than the Apollo flag behaved? If so, in what way?
     
  23. frenat

    frenat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Total BS. If YOU want to prove YOUR point YOU should show it. This is a cheap cop-out and you know it. Exactly what I'd expect from a bot.



    Typical of you. I'm not the one making a claim. YOU are. YOU need to prove your claim. YOU have failed to do so. YOU have been asked for years to do so and have failed to even try.
     
  24. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,096
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yet again the spammed videos.

    This is so easy a small kid could do it! My video shows you where the frames are:-

    [video=youtube;E4gbMT-Zs2Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4gbMT-Zs2Y[/video]

    Go to your Joe Rogan video, isolate the two frames I used. The split second before he enters and the point corresponding to just before he reaches the flag.
    Type alt gr and prt sc together. Then paste that into a paint screen. Save picture as jpeg. Do the same for second frame.

    Go to any online gif maker and use those two frames. Post the result.

    Prove it - I just showed you how. Just because you are dishonest, doesn't mean people are who know what they are doing! I predict that you will avoid doing this, just as you have done for your trotting video.

    It is impossible for you to see any small movement before without slowing the video and isolating frames. You are the liar and everybody who sees this will know it.

    Yet the lens flares move which you are too ignorant to understand. In addition the entire flag moves not just the corner(which you deceptively concentrate on!) and areas of terrain seem to move right. This all starts occurring the split second Dave Scott enters the frame when he is well over 6 feet away from the flag. You keep playing dumb about this.

    I genuinely think you are doing this deliberately. Nobody can be that stupid not to read properly what I just posted. Here:-

    1. He kicks soil, it strikes the flagpole before he reaches it, because it travels faster than he does. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    2. It is a camera anomaly, the lens flares move, so does the flagpole and entire flag. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    3. His footsteps cause minor vibrations that judder the flagpole before he reaches it. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.
    4. Static electricity discharges against the flag before he reaches it. He then collides with the edge of the flag with his elbow as he goes past.

    Two different things. The second one does not depend on the first. It starts moving very much before he gets there, but that doesn't mean he doesn't then strike it.

    Do you understand?

    You are getting good at playing dumb. Descartes highlighted Bernoulli's principle which makes the flag start moving TOWARDS the causative force. Did you miss that stunning rebuttal? Did you miss the fact that my video demonstrated that perfectly? Yes, of course that doesn't count because you are too locked in to the spam. In addition, although he agreed with you that the cloth moves, he confirmed that it was only visible afterwards. You are cornered but sadly are too locked in to your spam to see it.


    Explain with citations how air moves something a few feet in front of it. Explain properly how the wind tunnel doesn't explain exactly how air movement works.
     
  25. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Translation: I know that the light piece of cloth would behave exactly like the Apollo flag behavior in that scenario so I'd better tap dance around the issue instead of addressing it directly.


    This is my claim.

    (from post #4)
    It's so obvious that I doubt that many people would even take the trouble to test it but those that do will see that it's true. This anomaly is too clear to obfuscate. Your success rate at making the viewers think that air didn't move the flag is going to be close to zero.
     

Share This Page