The Futility of the Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence

Well this Galactic Federation is violating the Prime Directive left and right.

 

True.

We make some efforts. I think some other countries do, too.

AND, we have federally funded projects working out how to do agriculture on Mars!!

Maybe we should work toward an international treaty on limits. We could just start out by saying it's perfectly fine to trash the moon and Mars. The idea that nations would protect those two places seems ludicrously remote.

I wonder what was riding on that Indian "lander" the powerdived into the moon. Do they share our protocols?

 

You're making a number of false assumptions monitored by the limited imagination of a 21st century human.

There have been a few thousand persons, as revealed under hypnosis, of individuals recovering lost memories of abductions.

Now, off hand, that sounds like it's unscientific, and it might be, but there is a few compelling aspects to this. The abductions have been going on for a number of decades, and the vast majority of the stories told tell practically the same tale in a number of respects.

The salient one is that aliens communicate via telepathy. Each and every one of the testimonies recovered under hypnosis, noting that none of the subjects know each other, and many testimonies acquired long before the book, 'communion' was published, the salient aspect was that they communicate via telepathy, without exception, this is how they communicate. We know this because they are able to trigger something in the subject's brain and communicate to humans this wqy, and they, able to communicate bak. Subjects report that after being abducted, their triggered telepathic ablity lingers for a couple of days, and they are able to read minds for a short spell, then it fades. That is why we are not 'receiving' communication, they don't use electronics to communicate. Telepathy changes everything.

Now, on the issue of distance, if their machines can warp space, then traveling at the speed of light is not a limitation ( the universe travels much faster than the speed of light, because space is moving with the planets in it are moving. Space can move much faster than the speed of light because Einstein's speed limit only applies to physical objects within space, not space, itself. Similarily, if you can warp space, think of a rubber duck in a bathtub of water sitting on the back of a van moving at 70 mph, the duck is moving 1/4 of a mile per hour in the tub, but add the 70 mph van speed to the duck and the duck is actually traveling at 70 1/4 mph. so, think of warping space and moving within the warp as the bathtub is the warp, and the space ship is the duck. This is how aliens can traverse seemingly impossible distances.

Because an alien space ship has conquered the problem of gravity, then 'G forces' become moot, which is why they have been witnessed turning and right angles at super sonic speeds.

See, if we, as humans, are trying to understand aliens, noting that they are what, a million years ahead of his in technology, it would be foolish to project on them anthropological reasoning, we have no idea how they think what their motives are, and what the are up to. speculating is a fools errand. No one knows and they are tight lipped about it, and they are operating, mostly, clandestinely.

Read books by Dr. John Mack ( Harvard fellow psychiatric dept ) Budd Hopkins, and Dr. David Jacobs. They go into the subject with some scholarship, though some of their contemporaries won't give them the light of day, which is understandable. But, since, I'm not an academic, I don't have a reputation to worry about.

 

And anal probings. Don't forget all those 'recovered' memories of anal probings. They truly crossed the vast distances of interstellar space just to 'boldly go where no man had gone before'.

 

Forgot to add.

Aren't you a 21st century human to? Because if so you are just as limited by your biology re: making 'false assumptions' and have just a 'limited an imagination' as the rest of us are. Albeit we have waaaay more evidence on our side of the debate that you do (well actually you have no hard evidence on your side but why quibble).

Be that as it may welcome to the human club.

 

Correction, the limitation is not one of biology, it's one of imagination.

I am not trying to prove anything. I'm just pointing out the conclusion of 'futility' is based on assumptions. I did suggest some possible alternative concepts which could possibly quell the notion of futility, but I'm no scientist, I'm just an armchair UFO buff who likes to speculate.

Yes, I'm a 21st century human as well, but I choose not to make assumptions about whether or not Aliens have the capability to come to earth, nor make assumptions about their motives.

It is, indeed, possible, for a 21st century human to not make assumptions and to recommend that others not do it, as well.

 

I have more confidence in physics than I do in searching for "truth" by hypnotizing humans. I mean, hypnotizing humans doesn't even work for exploring the individual's unfortunate childhood.

And, as long as you're ready to dump phyaics when it doesn't do what you want, why not just propose travel moumentally faster than the speed of light? Wouldn't that make the story easier to tell than the "genius aliens warping space to meet travel desires" idea?

 

Mankind's lack of advancement in physics on par with a civilization far more advanced does not equal 'physics not doing what I want it to".

Moreover, as I understand physics, which is very little, what I said about warping space as a means to indirectly travel faster than the speed of light, I got from a physicist, but I forgot who it was. I'll try and find the link, if you really want me to.

 

Physics can only deal with the physical. But what if there was something else? I have no idea what that may be but is it a possibility? In physics all we have is warped space for FTL travel. Or what if we could step into a Stargate. But the mind holds the key....somewhere.

 

Physics is the study of how our universe works.

It is NOT the study of how to make it work in some other way.

Suggesting physics isn't advancing because it's not producing faster than light speed travel makes no sense at all. If the universe doesn't support faster than light speed travel, physics is NOT going to change that. It's going to identify that as a limit - because of that being how the universe works.

Such a limit isn't imposed by technology, either. So, you can't expect an engineer to create some technology to go faster than light. Engineers are constrained by physics.

There is a field called "theoretical physics". In that field, mathatical models are used to extend beyond anything we have the possibility of actually testing. So, they posit various possibilities that come from these models - possibilities that physicists do not see happening in the universe and can not test to see if they are real.

So, we get stuff like "string theory" where the strings are monumentally smaller than can be detected by human technology. And, by now that family of mathatical models is falling out of vogue - to be replaced by other ideas that also can't be tested.

I'm glad we have theoretical physics, but the purpose that serves is to help actual physicists find cool places to look to advance our understanding of how this universe works.

 

Mankind's understanding of physics is limited. That doesn't mean physics doesn't exceed his understanding.

I'd say the probably of the scope of physics exceeding mankind's understanding of it is 100%.

It may be true that one cannot go faster than the speed of light. But that is linear travel, right?

Who's to say there isn't some other paradigm (warp drives? ) that doesn't exceed physics, but does exceed out current level of knowledge of physics?

IN my view, to say otherwise is an assumption.

No?

 

In terms of the scale of assumptions being made...

I'd say that physicists are doing a good job of making no assumptions. They carefully measure and cross checke in numerous ways, test over and over again for years (like ever year for the last 100 years for Einstein's work) and demostrate what is found so that it can be examined by the entire world.

From there, we have theoretical physics where the current understanding of how physics works is extended with various mathmatical modeling with the hope of finding new insight into why this universe works the way it does. The models created are pure math, can not be tested, and the models don't particualarly match each other in any way. These models fall in and out of vogue, usually come in families (such as the rather large family of string theories), and even start with different stated objectives. For instance, most of these models are oriented to finding a "next layer down" rather than idenifying first principles that could possibly lead to what exists.

I don't see either of those groups making assumptions of the magnitude of your assumptions here. And, I just don't see any justification for eliminating what we've learned merely on the notion that we probably aren't omniscient - a concept that nobody disagrees with.

 

We can't travel at the speed of light because our mass increases as we go faster, also requiring the energy to thrust to the speed of light to increase until both energy and mass approaches infinity.

But warp drive doesn't need an object to travel at the speed of light to move an object faster than the speed of light. There's no increase in mass or energy usage, just pinching and spreading space-time.

Just an aside, I read a news article recently that physicists had successfully compressed space-time to that of a white dwarf star, or something, by using electromagnetic forces. Unfortunately, I can't locate that article and I've put in a fair amount of time searching for it without success. So, this is just an aside.

 

There is a way to traverse the cosmos in a relatively short period of time by warping space time, I've heard scientists posit this idea. It doesn't violate Einstein, it just goes around it into some other paradigm ( if 'paradigm' is the right word, I'm no scientist ).

WE just haven't figured it out yet. Am I wrong?

 

If you think that exists, then cite it.

Because yes, I see nothing to suggest you are right about this idea that we can warp space time to dodge the speed limit.

Maybe you're thinking of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc...ierre warp,achieve apparent faster-than-light

So, let's see where THAT takes us.

According to that idea, you want me to accept the notion of "negative mass"! Seriosly!

And, my cite identifies several other impossibilities with this particular idea.

So, yes. I don't have respect for demands that I must see physics is garbage, AND that I must accept preposterous nonsense such as "negative mass" - and especially so when the argument is merely that to refuse to accept this nonsense is an "assumption".

 

Alcubierre is who I was thinking of. He, and other physicists, though they acknowledge warping space time would require a herculean amount of energy and mankind's knowledge, to date, doesn't have the technology to do it, they are accepting the concept that it is plausible, and whose to say some alien race hasn't figured it out? My point is that there are serious physicists contemplating it with some seriousness, and that the idea isn't all that preposterous. You seem to be assuming its no where near the region of the plausible, that the very idea of it is 'garbage' when serious physicists are saying otherwise. Since I'm not a physicist, I have no way of knowing who is right, so my choice, from where I sit, is more like, 'do I side with the optimists, or the naysayers'?

So, I'm on the side of optimists and reject your 'impossible garbage' opinion. Moreover, to date, there have been hundreds of thousand of sightings of UFOs, 10s of thousands of abductions, and is it realistic to say, that out of all of it, there is not one that is legitimate? Not one? Is that realistic? Then we have the Eisenhower briefing documents. several hundred witnesses, with deathbed confessions, of Roswell. Even Hynek, the famous astronomer hired by the Airforce to debunk UFO sightings under 'Project Bluebook", eventually came to a place where he considered that, UFOs were plausible, whereas when he started on Project Bluebook, he was a skeptic. The Navy has admitted spending millions studying "UFOs" and now instruct pilots to report them ( it used to be if you were a pilot, and reported seeing a UFO, it would endanger your career, and that is no longer true ) and sightings of craft defying the laws of physics ( as we understand them ) have been reported visually and on radar and have been photographed on our jet's video recording systems, which have been released to the public. If only one of those sightings were the real deal, then it proves that interstellar travel is possible, and the problem of faster-than-light travel has been overcome.

 

Physics absolutely does NOT consider this drive as being possible for a number of different reasons. I gave you the wiki, because it includes a number of these reasons that the idea is a dead end.

The topic does draw attention, because it would be so incredible if we were to figure out how to break ALL the phyisics we know.

Throughout ALL our sciences, scientists LIVE for the opportunity to falsify the major understandings of their fields. They created CERN to break our physics of today. The fact that it didn't was a HUGE disappointment. The people of science whose names we know are heavily weighted to those who broke the understandings of those of their day - Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Darwin, etc. Each of these people trashed the understandings of those of their day.

There exists this idea that scientists spend their time defending current understanding, but that is just plain garbage. To a person, scientists hope and dream of throwing the cards in the air.

And, I absolutely expect this whole topic to be exciting to thoretical physicists who will strive to break EVERYTHING we know - because that's what makes science work. That's what science DEPENDS on.

But, the fact that scinece would dearly love to throw the cards in the air is NOT justification for YOUR assumption about physics we know being garbage.

Surely it is a sound national defense position to listen to what pilots experience. It's not as if the USA is the only creator of Earthly technology.

But, I see your logic as being "If we find a alien, then that proves there are aliens". And, I agree with that. It's just that such statements have NO relevancy to the question of whether aliens exist or whether our physics is garbage.

 

Basically, you are a naysayer, a pessimist. I say that because of words you use, like 'garbage'.

that belies an attitude, that it's no where in the realm of the possible.

History is replete with innovators who defy the status quo of halted thinking.

 

In the face of zero evidence and with our physics of today I absolutely am skeptical of alien UFOs visiting us and dreams of breaking the light speed barrier.

I'd point out that theoretical physics, as unconstrained by evidence as it is, still broadly rejects warp drive, negative mass, negative energy, white holes, faster than light travel, etc.

I just don't see any validity in saying something is a "possibility" when there is massive evidence against it and no evidence in support of it. I go outside even though someone might suggest I'm assuming I won't float away. Yes. I do assume that. I'm well aware that there is a lot that I assume and I think you do, too. But, there are very good reasons for those assumptions.

 

I hope most people here realize that warp drives, wormholes, FTL travel are all science-fiction constructs that are currently not supported by real physics.
Could them be possible, and just, the current state of our understanding of physics is not enough to figure it out? I guess. But I find it highly unlikely.
We could debate this ad infinitum. There are numerous possible explanations for why we haven't found intelligent aliens, a.k.a. The Fermi Paradox.
This simple Wikipedia article lists many of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
See #4, Hypothetical explanations for the paradox.
I used to like this kind of discussion. These days I find that it all becomes quite circular. Most likely we will never know; not in the lifetime of everybody who is participating here.
So, in view of this, I choose to worry about other, more concrete and feasible pursuits.

 

Good post!

I find it very slightly more important, as it is a manifestation of antiscience that is far too prevalent today.

It's steeped in the rejection of theoretical and experimental physics, accepts instead the tales of hypnotized individuals and area 51 conspiracies, and clings to fantastic claims concerning what navy pilots have seen - even after debunking.

 

Thanks. By the way, you're a good poster. We got the wrong start. I apologize for coming after you in the Pfizer deep cold chain posts. I guess I was in a bad mood. As you may imagine, the pandemic has me exhausted and frustrated. But as of now I'm on vacation until December 29th! So my mood has improved, and I regret that I was being aggressive with a fellow poster who is pro-science. I hope we can reset and become friendlier with each other. Cheers.

 

You had really good points and I was not as clear as I could have been.

I really respect your decision making process and that's what I see happening in the vast majority of cases. That's why I'm certaily going to get injected with the first vaccine that finds it's way to my arm - given recommendations of your idustry, of course.

 

Since we do not possess any empirical evidence of ET's all we have are naysayers and sayers. We have folklore, anecdotal, conspiracy, science-fiction, theoretical, science-based, and opinions...but we have no evidence of anything other than what we factually know today.

Personally, my opinion is there are other lifeforms in the far reaches of the Universe...but it's ONLY an opinion. Regarding new physics yet to be discovered, while anything is possible, there remains no evidence. Can a human safely manage near-SOL acceleration and deceleration or can this be solved by sitting in a chair that purportedly traverses through a so-called worm hole traveling light years in distance in 30 seconds all as tame as watching a video screen?

Perhaps if an intelligent civilization of ET's can survive for 1000's of years we can hope they will be more technologically advanced than humans? But I look at how humans are sucking the lifeblood out of Earth with over-population and pollution, etc. and it's difficult for me to imagine humans can last another 100 years much less 1000's of years?

 

~ We need a search for intelligence here on planet earth ! To Hell with looking for it elsewhere .