The Holocaust Question, Pre WW2 Germany, and the Horrific Fate of Post WW2 Germans

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by upside-down cake, Jul 12, 2014.

  1. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've followed the Holocaust debate for decades off and on. What I've found that the true believers in the Holocaust are even more fanatical about their faith in any/all versions that support it---than are the current members of ISIS who behead people who lack the same amount of faith in Islam.

    So, if someone doesn't believe in whatever the current version of their history is, will their souls be dammed to Hell for eternity? Is this the fate of all Holocaust Deniers? Why isn't there a similar law in Europe that criminalizes denial or minimalization of the Soviet's genocide of the Ukranians in the Holomodor? So is anyone who has trouble with even one detail of the current version of the Holocaust an anti-Semite? And does the same hold for a critic of the Holomodor---are they now an anit-Ukranite? On a scale of 1 to 10, how much more terrible is an anti-Semite than an anti-Ukranite?

    plaque 1.png plaque 2.png
     
  2. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Start watching this video at the 2:34:30 time mark.

    ONE THIRD of the HOLOCAUST - Widescreen (full)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE
     
  3. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    The so-called Revisionists are all deniers and all deniers are either stupid, ignorant or evil
     
  4. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Leuchter and Rudolf? NOW THAT IS HILARIOUS.

    Only knuckle draggers and racist jew haters could possibly believe such incompetent moronic "scholarship".

    Mr. Death is one of the most unintentionally funny films ever made. It documents the breadth and depth of Leuchter's scientific ignorance and the kindergarten level mistakes he made - and HE WILLINGLY COOPERATED IN MAKING THE FILM!

    [video=youtube;47jeOYLauxw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47jeOYLauxw[/video]
     
  5. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was wondering if you (or anyone else here) can come up with some concrete figures on the Holocaust:

    First, what is the very best figure on the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust?

    Next, how many total people were killed at Auschwitz, and how many of those were Jews?

    Now concerning Auschwitz (that includes all the very nearby camps), what was the average number of people who died there each day while the Nazis were running the camp(s)?

    What was the maximum number of people that were killed at Auschwitz in any 24 hour period?

    What was the maximum number of people that experts believe could be cremated at the Auschwitz (camps) in a 24 hour period?

    If burn pits were used at Auschwitz, what was the maxium number of people burned in them when they were used---and their location(s)?

    Just the facts, thank you.
     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all these questions have been answered long ago.

    are you gonna do any independent research or just demand others give you info?
     
  7. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, but all the questions have multiple answers.

    Even for question for how many died at Auschwitz;
    Some say it was as high as 9million, actual records show around 73,000.
    http://socioecohistory.wordpress.co...number-of-holocaust-dead-drop-to-2-8-million/
    http://www.heretical.com/miscella/rudolf.html

    Which one is most correct?

    With the huge array of survior testimony out there, I find it impossible to fit all the stories with the scene of the crime. How about you refreshing me on just one more question: What was the maximum number of people that were able to be cremated in the "special ovens" at Auschwitz in a 24 hour period?

    Just two questions now---since the answers are so well known---what are they?
     
  8. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I would recommend you just think logically. It is impossible that 6 million people came home and no one noticed, or them all moving someplace without us knowing and never returning. Therefore, it couldn't have been only 73,000.

    The same logic applies for 9 million. That would mean that we forgot 1 in 3 people who were missing. Imagine families who actually went through this hell hole, and you'd have family members dying in the Holocaust, and then they would forget every third member of their family who was missing. So 9 million is out of the question as well.

    The holocaust evidence is overwhelming but the precise number is missing because the number is too high. Also people got executed outside of the concentration camps. In Budapest they would tie people up and make them stand in line on the bridge of the river Danube. Then the soldiers would shoot the first and the last, which would make all the people drown in between. Or people worked to death in underground facilities, where life expectancy for workers was less than a month.

    The numbers are very specific for institutions like Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,305,190 people arrived in that concentration camp according to the documentation remaining. Roughly 400,000 people were registered in Auschwitz-Birkenau of whom half died because of hunger, working conditions, sicknesses, executions and medical experiments. So for these we actually have names. 900,000 additional people were never registered because they were executed upon arrival. The numbers of unregistered people are a result because the numbers of arrivers were listed, but not their names. 223,000 came to Auschwitz and left it alive. So we have a rough estimate that at least 1,082,000 people died in Auschwitz-Birkenau from 1940 to 1945.

    The Polish and Soviet commission tried to make an estimate in 1945 how many people were killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. They concluded that the facility had the capacity to execute a total of 5 million people and then they subtracted 20% for maintenance work. That's why some "estimates" speak of 2.8 to 4 million people.
     
  9. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think the people running the Holocaust museums and tourist camps would like you minimalizing the death toll at Auschwitz by one third.

    If Hitler had ordered the Final Soultion, why did all the camp commanders try to keep so many Jews, especially small weak kids like Anne Frank and her sister alive for so long? Multiple witnesses said the Dr Mengele only kept the kept the men and strong workers alive after they got off the trains, and the rest led to the gas chambers. Why did Anne Frank and her sister get to stay at Auschwitz for 55 days then get transferred to Bergan Belsen in Oct 1944, then be allowed to live until finally dying of typhus 2 weeks before the war ended? I would think hardcore SS men like Hoess would have killed every Jew arriving within a few weeks at most.
    http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-us/bronnenbank.asp?oid=15929

    As I have a background in science and physics, I would like your imput on how the Auschwitz ovens and burn pits could have operated in the real world. Are these two sources what you believe?

    http://www.hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/cremation1.html

    http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/
     
  10. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I don't understand what you mean. What did I say to "minimize" the death toll in Auschwitz-Birkenau?

    You're using a very specific example. Jews were kept alive for several reasons. The strong and healthy ones were kept alive to become workers, some of the elite intellectual ones were kept alive to work in Sachsenhausen on the operation Bernhard (forgery) for example, some were kept alive for scientific reasons (medical experiments), etc.

    But you also had Nazis who wanted to survive the aftermath of WW2, because it was quite clear by the end of 1943 to some and by 1944 to many that the war would end in a defeat for Germany. So if you help a Jewish family, you could have someone after WW2 who owes you and they would (hopefully) defend you. It really was sometimes done for something as simple and selfish as that.

    I have no background in physics or science. I'm a historian, so I go by the evidence provided. Personally I didn't travel to any former concentration camp yet, primarily because I don't think I have the stomach for it. I try to avoid this topic when it becomes too graphic. I saw too many pictures and documents of that time, which makes the incidents very personal and real instantly. You have to keep in mind that if you live in Austria, you not only encounter some stories of victims who lived close, but also get confronted with the people who were the real deal in terms of bad guys. A name in that regard that pops into my head is Maria Mandl who was in charge of the women's concentration camp facility of Auschwitz-Birkenau. A college colleague of mine was born in the same town as her, actually just two or three houses down the road, and nobody in that town wanted to talk about her. His neighbors knew her personally but after the war completely avoided talking about her existence.

    It is really different I think if you are living closer to both the victims and the Nazi criminals. Of the two of grandfathers I had one ended up in Dachau starting 1943 until the end of the war, and the second was an essential worker for the Nazi regime and did quite well for himself. Luckily I do not have true Nazi criminals in my ancestry. My father's uncle ended up as a German soldier in the 6th army and fought in Stalingrad. He actually survived and was in a Russian prison camp for a while before he returned back home. He was mentally insane and didn't live long after that. The whole WW2 experience is still very recent for us particularly because the death toll was so high.
     
  11. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Some of the facts you wished for:

    We estimate the death toll of the Holocaust to be over 6 million people.

    In Auschwitz-Birkenau the estimates of killed people is between 1.1 to 1.5 million.

    of the 1,305,190 people who were send to Auschwitz-Birkenau there were:
    438,000 jews from Hungary
    300,000 jews from Poland
    69,000 jews from France
    60,000 jews from Holland
    55,000 jews from Greece
    46,000 jews from Czech Republic
    27,000 jews from Slovakia
    25,000 jews from Belgium
    23,000 jews from Germany and Austria
    10,000 jews from Yugoslavia
    7,500 jews from Italy
    690 jews from Norway
    34,000 jews from other concentration camps
    147,000 people from Poland
    23,000 people who were classified as gypsies
    15,000 soviet prisoners
    and 25,000 others

    Of those listed 223,000 left the concentration camp alive:
    188,000 to other concentration camps (registered)
    25,000 to other concentration camps (unregistered)
    8,000 were registered as being rescued
    1,500 were registered as paroled
    500 were registered as escaped

    Now the question is how many came to that concentration camp who didn't end up on any list...
    And to answer your question further: at least 960,000 jews were killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

    The capacity for the gas-chamber was 1,087 square meters. This means that 8,696 people simultaneously could be gased because it is estimated that one square meter is enough for 8 people.
    In the files it says that they planned the crematorium for 3,450 people daily, however they could average in 24h up to 4,756 people. Estimates in the practical sense go to 2,938 people per day.

    In other words, the capacity was there to gas nearly 8,700 people simultaneously and they cremated most likely a little under 3,000 people on daily bases.
     
  12. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Definitely worthy of a gold Mogen David for following the holocaust denialist field manual so religiously. One more and you could qualify for a silver tottenkopf.

    Of course, actually reading historical analyses from professional historians, biographers, chemists, pathologists, eye witnesses etc., wouldn't be nearly as much fun as being so willingly and deliberately ignorant.

    Denialists do not appear to have the capacity to identify such idiotic, unscientific, lies, fallacious misrepresentations and truly idiotic tactics purely because they support this twisted hateful fantasy.


    EVERY SINGLE ACCUSATION FROM DENIALISTS HAS BEEN THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED.

    1. Creamed Mush with Fog Sauce -- Never provide evidence for your assertions. In fact, respond to demands for evidence the way Dracula responds to crucifixes. Do anything you can to avoid it. Throw insults. Change the subject. Obfuscate. Laugh derisively. Claim you already gave the evidence or that someone else did. But never provide any evidence yourself (unless you provide an incomplete or incomprehensible citation along with it).

    3. Hello, I'm a Cremation Expert -- Claim that the 52 Auschwitz furnaces could not have had the capacity to burn 4,756 corpses per day because modern commercial crematoriums don't have such a capacity. When its pointed out to you that there's no comparison between ordinary commercial crematoriums and those built in the camps, for a variety of reasons -- e.g. coffins were not used, one can cremate more than one corpse in a single retort, etc. -- ignore this and repeat the claim.

    8. Now You See It, Now You Don't -- Argue that the gas chambers never existed because they are not still standing. Of course, by this logic, the Mayflower, Carthage, Jimmy Hoffa, and large portions of the Great Wall never existed. When this is pointed out to you, ignore it.

    9. Kafka Was Here -- Argue that the gas chambers never existed because there are no photos or drawings of them. When you are presented with photos and drawings, state that they could not possibly be actual photos/drawings of gas chambers because the gas chambers never existed because there are no photos/drawings of them because they never existed because...

    10. Fun With Math -- Charge the anti-revisionists with playing numbers games while engaging in them yourself. For example, argue that the "holohoaxers" have changed the estimated number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million. When it's pointed out to you that the 4 million figure was supplied by the Soviets and refers to the total number of victims, not just Jews, and has always been considered ridiculously inflated by non-Soviet historians who have never varied from the 1 million figure for Jews, just repeat that the holohaoxers have changed the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million and that the Holocaust is therefore a hoax. The point of this tactic, of course, is to try to make ALL the death figures questionable. If 4 million is unreliable, then 1 million is likewise unreliable, and you just keep revising the numbers downward until you reach zero, and then - poof! - no Holocaust!

    14. If you don't want to look like a total buffoon, there's always the pseudo-academic, above-the-fray approach. With a huge dose of arrogance and superiority, explain that you are neither a revisionist nor any other "label", merely someone with a healthy skepticism about everything, including Holocaust history (ALL of it), and that you are conducting your own research to determine for yourself whether certain Holocaust incidents actually took place. Pretend to be totally impartial (despite the avalanche of Holocaust evidence you would encounter the minute you actually began any legitimate research), but in your posts only question the Holocaust historians' statements, not revisionists' statements.

    17. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for your imput. I hope you are not too psychologically invested in these numbers, because they are an impossibility.

    Why would camp comanders like Hoss keep two sets of records? One for all he wished to count and keep alive for awhile, and one for all that were to be immediately burned? Did camp commanders like Hoss NOT want to obey Hitler's Final Solution orders? But if you want to believe all those extra people were sent on to Auschwitz II/Birkenau--- it's no skin off my nose.

    I won't go into the gas chambers debate---as how these extra people died is not as much of an issue as HOW they were disposed of. Your figure of 3,000 being cremated on a daily basis is impossible on many accounts.

    The Soviet estimates you gave were based on theoretical figures based on ovens more modern and superior than the ones at Auschwitz I &II. Mattogno has given a detailed report on how your figures are not possible. Given the ovens used at these camps---it would take a minimun of 55 minutes to cremate an average corpse. Also multiple bodies could not have been put into each muffle unless it was one thin person and one or two babies.

    This cremation capacity is, however, purely theoretical, because it ignores an important fact: according to the memo of March 17, 1943,[128] the normal activity of the crematoria was only 12 hours per day, thus taking into consideration the inevitable occurring breakdowns of machinery. Hence, the actual capacity was only 60% of the values given above:


    Crematorium
    # Muffles
    Operation
    Capacity

    Crematorium I
    Crematorium II
    Crematorium III
    Crematorium IV
    Crematorium V
    6
    15
    15
    8
    8
    × 12 h/day =
    × 12 h/day =
    × 12 h/day =
    × 12 h/day =
    × 12 h/day =
    72 normal bodies/day
    180 normal bodies/day
    180 normal bodies/day
    96 normal bodies/day
    96 normal bodies/day

    Total
    52
    × 12 h/day =
    624 normal bodies/day

    From all this it follows that the ovens of Auschwitz I and Birkenau (Auschwitz II) altogether were able to cremate about (138,000 + 24,000 =) 162,000 bodies during the period of their existence. This figure agrees quite well with the number of known, deceased registered inmates.

    Thus, the cremation of the supposed gassing victims was physically impossible in technological respects as well.

    http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

    The burning pits that were supposed to have exsisted in great quantity and size in the area around Crematorium V were also a physical impossiblilty. Here is an "eyewitness" account of them:

    The foremost 'witness' for this manner of body disposal is Filip Müller, who speaks of five pits located in the northern yard of crematorium V. His account is quite long-winded; we shall quote the most important points:[198]

    "The two pits [that had been dug] were 40 to 50 meters long, about 8 meters wide and 2 meters deep. However, this particular place of torment was not yet ready for use by any means. Once the rough work was finished, there followed the realization of the refinements thought up by the arch-exterminator's [Otto Moll's] warped ingenuity.

    Together with his assistant, Eckardt, he climbed down into the pit and marked out a 25 centimeters by 30 centimeters wide strip, running lengthways down the middle from end to end. By digging a channel which sloped slightly to either side from the center point, it would be possible to catch the fat exuding from the corpses as they were burning in the pit, in two collecting pans at either end of the channel."

    After this work was finished, Moll allegedly climbed into the pit to test the incline of the drain channel with a bucket of water. The incline turns out to be inadequate. It is made steeper, and in the next test the water runs along the channel and flows into a container placed at its end.[199] Müller continues:[200]

    "As it began to grow light, the fire was lit in two of the pits in which about 2,500 dead bodies lay piled one on top of the other. Two hours later all that could be discerned in the white-hot flames were countless charred and scorched shapes, their blackish-phosphorescent hue a sign that they were in an advanced stage of cremation. At this point the fire had to be kept going from outside because the pyre which at first protruded about half a meter above the edge of pit had, in the meantime, gone below this level. While in the crematorium ovens, once corpses were thoroughly alight, it was possible to maintain a lasting red heat with the help of fans, in the pits the fire would burn only as long as the air could circulate freely in between the bodies. As the heap of bodies settled, no air was able to get in from outside. This meant that we stokers had to constantly pour oil or wood alcohol on the burning corpses, in addition to human fat, large quantities of which had collected and was boiling in the two collecting pans on either side of the pit. The sizzling fat was scooped out with buckets on a long curved rod and poured all over the pit causing flames to leap up amid much crackling and hissing. Dense smoke and fumes rose incessantly. The air reeked of oil, fat, benzene and burnt flesh. [...]

    Some twenty-five bearers were employed in clearing the gas chamber and removing the corpses to the pits. [...] About fifteen stokers had to place the fuel in the pit and to light and maintain the fire by constantly stoking in between the corpses and pouring oil, wood alcohol and liquid human fat over them. There were approximately thirty-five men in the ash team. Some had to dig the ashes from the pits and remove them to the ash depot. The others were busy pulverizing the ashes. [...]

    In order to prepare the third pit for cremation old railway sleepers, wooden beams, planks, and sawdust were arranged in layers and covered with a layer of dry fir branches. Then the bearers laid about 400 corpses face upwards in four long rows on top of the fuel. The next layer again consisted of fuel covered, as before, with fir branches. Then followed another layer of corpses. This sequence was repeated once more until, in the end, there were some 1,200 dead bodies in three layers. Meanwhile the stokers had soaked pieces of material and rags in oil and wood alcohol and stuffed them in between the fuel in many places."

    The cremation allegedly took five to six hours:[201]

    "In the meantime [the fire] had gone out [in the two other pits]. The process of incineration took five to six hours. What was left barely filled a third of the pit."

    11.2. The Method of Scooping Human Fat

    The flashpoint of animal fats is 184° C (363° F).[202] This means that in the presence of fire or embers, animal fats - and human fat also belongs in this category - ignites at 184° C (363° F). Therefore burning wood would inevitably ignite any fat exuding from the corpses. This effect is familiar to anyone who has ever barbecued and had fat drip from his steak into the charcoal: the entire grill is quickly ablaze.

    Thus, the set-up described by Filip Müller is outrageous nonsense and would not allow for any scooping of the fat whatsoever.[203]

    http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

    If you are true believer in burning pits, there still must be hundreds of thousands of charred human remains that can be easily dug up. Wonder why there haven't been any independant archeological digs done at these sites?
     
  14. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    After you recover from your rabid fit---view my post #63. As long as you completed some high school, you should be able answer some of your own baited questions---if you take the time to read though Mattogno's data.
     
  15. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    All the sources you used are from revisionists.
    So you will have to explain to me, why in your mind the scientific community with their PhDs and their massive facilities and budget came to the same conclusion, that the Holocaust existed, yet have less credibility than a half dozen people, who are not qualified and look for the facts which favor their story only?

    Why are people like Carlo Mattogno, Ernst Zündel and Fred Leuchter more credible than the scientific community across the world?

    What do you think of people who have advanced degrees in history?
     
  16. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Persistence in the face of utterly devastating rebuttals. Yet another tactic from the manual.

    Not that it will help but for each shining example of denialist academic excrement, there are numerous devastating rebuttals.

    they are easily found if one is actually interested in the truth, but for some incredible reason, denialists can't seem to find ANY of them, yet seem incredibly proficient in finding stupid IHR level garbage by the usual suspects of Nazis, bigots, jew haters and knuckle draggers. Leuchter's room temperature IQ was obviously very impressive to his denialist audience.

    I don't know why denialists insist on getting the same questions they have asked for 40 years answered. Its as tho they are expecting some miracle and the answers were going to change because they want them to.
     
  17. zizou77

    zizou77 New Member

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    This is my first post, so I would ask you for indulgence.

    I would like to say something on how denialists are treated/ should be treated:
    I don´t know the Situation in the US oder the UK or elsewhere, but in Germany we should change our attitude towards this issue.
    Of course, it is ridiculous to deny the Holocaust.
    However, the right of free expression is a basic principle of democracy.
    In my country, denialists are treated as if they themselves committed the Nazi´s attrocities.
    Without a doubt, especially for Germans the Holocaust is a very delicate and emotional matter we cannot discuss the way other countries can.
    Nevertheless, our generation is no longer to blame for these attrocities.
    I would like both my compatriots and all other countries to discuss the subject more objectively.
     
  18. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just as I thought---the realities of little things like design and temperature and maintenece and operating times that govern all other machinery---don't apply.

    All modern crematory ovens were never as good as the concentration camp ovens from 70 years ago. Holocaust Maximalists (Liars, actually) have the same child-like belief in Santa Claus, as they do in whatever the current numbers given out by their own "experts."

    You must believe--- out-dated, crude coke-fed and wood-burning ovens used in the Auschwitz I & II camps were 8 times more effective than modern ones.

    Warning the following video has graphic content that will disturb Holocaust zelots!

    [video=youtube;BHBaCZ3slis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis[/video]
     
  19. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    why did you skip my post?

     
  20. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes McFly, industrial scale body cremation furnaces are not in anyway comparable to your run of the mill mortuary crematorium.
    No coffins, multiple bodies, continual feeding, and high availability are not "commercial design" specs. Not that this glaringly obvious fact can sneak by a denialist such as yourself. With every post you make you expose your gross intellectual bankruptcy in the name of jew hatred and Nazi apologism.
     
  21. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    Very interesting post. And it actually raises some points I had been pondering recently as well. Like most people, I never questioned the official narrative of World War II. It never even occurred to me to ask why Hitler was so violently antisemitic. But I had no clue about the Jewish role in Bolshevism. When this was brought to my attention, it suddenly made me very uncomfortable. Because I began to wonder if perhaps there was more to the story than I had been told. It began to make sense how the German public could latch onto the notion of protecting your nation from a growing communist threat largely perpetrated by one group of people. Prior to this, I had never been able to understand how Hitler had been able to sell such a strong anti-Jewish narrative to the people.

    Here's the main thing I've never been able to understand, though. And if anyone has any ideas on this, I'm interested in hearing them. If stopping the spread of communism was the goal, how is it that Hitler thought he was doing this by pitting it against national socialism? Slapping "national" in front of it doesn't make it any less Marxist. It's still basically just a lesser degree of the same doctrine. Why weren't the Nazis full-on capitalists? Even today among Neo-Nazi factions, you'll still find them supporting national socialism and rejecting both communism and capitalism. I don't understand this at all.
     
  22. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    Holocaust deniers are evil, stupid or ignorant and there are examples of all of them on this thread.
     
  23. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot of red flags surrounding that story. For one, the made criticism and investigation of the Holocasut illegal. That's insane. We knows theres people who question the Revolution, the Civil War, the Vietnam war, and so on. But they outlawed investigation of the Holocaust. If you want to know more about that, investigate the serious journalists and investigators who took on that project. They bring up really, really good points.

    Also, you'd do yourself a lot of good to learn more about Germany from their defeat in WW1 and before WW2. That will show you just how evil and greedy the allies were, and how economic subjugation was used against the Germans in an attempt to control them.

    Also, I think Hitler's criticism against elite Jews in the country who were amassing a disproportionate amount of power in that state (kinda like here) spilled into a general resentment of all Jews. There definitely was violence done to the Jews. Definitely brutalities and deaths, but the extent of the holocaust is what is being questioned as well as the reasoning behind it. When you question the validity of the severity of German treatment of the Jews, all other things are questioned, like the allies purpose in inflating that story.

    And just one more point. WW2 was hardly about saving Jews. That was a concern that developed during the war and became a usefl prod for morale. This war was a war between imperialists- both of whom didn't like Jews very much. And this charge of human rights violations...was coming from the US and Britain, who, by then, committed massive human rights crimes all over the world (though the US was just gearing up at this point).

    I garauntee, go half way through it with an unbiased mind, and you'll come out a little dispirited but a lot clearer about the world we live in. It's a shark pool. Always has been... At the very least, you'll see Israel in a different light all together, especially when you notice that they've been trying to get European powers to carve them out a piece of the levant quite a ways before WW2. While the average Jews were poor, there were Jewish people of considerable power and influence, like those in Germany. I clarify that because I don't want to make it seem like I'm against Jews in general, but to show how the elite Jews may have committed actions that led to the widespread hatred of all Jews.
     
  24. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    Really? Stupid and ignorant people don't really question anything. And cowards back down from insults and sneers. A lot of good people are led to do terrible things to other people because of ignorance and true cowardice. Or malice and hatred. I'd wager the truly wise see evil everywhere, including themselves, and the truly good are willing to stand, alone, against it.
     
  25. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Holocaust deniers are intellectually dishonest people with clear agendas, be that Nazi apologism or jew hatred.

    The utter hypocrisy of these knuckledraggers can be seen quite simply by their insistence that truly incompetent amateurs like Leuchter, Krege, Ball, etc. are right and the armies of qualified historians and scientists and eyewitnesses and confessions are all wrong.

    There hasn't been a single piece of information that has been discovered that lends itself to the idiocy of denialism. ALL of the so called evidence they have provided is either fabricated (the aforementioned idiots) or misrepresented (Irving, Faurisson, Butz, Zundel, Weber, etc.) or of little to no significance to the greater narrative.


    All of the tactics they use are transparent, yet they faithfully adhere to their field manual of how to be a revisionist scholar.

    http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Exhib/HowtoEngl.html
     

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