The "Lancet" about hydroxychloroquine

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by LafayetteBis, May 23, 2020.

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  1. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don’t see that there is plausible evidence for it yet. It is a complex issue and I don’t have have the knowledge base to understand all the ramifications.
    Epidemiology is a big topic.
     
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  2. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Did you see the list of supplements he takes?
     
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  3. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He is doing as much as he can to get his immune system strong enough not to catch the virus or to have a mild dose. Most of them are on the recommended list by some American Medical establishment. I put in a link to it a few weeks ago. The only one I can remember which was not on the list was CoQ10. These are recommended. I think he also mentioned but is not taking Quercetin. There are claims that it acts similar to hydroxychloroquine in that it can get the Zinc into the cell where the virus is. Once in the Zinc is able to stop the virus from replicating. A massive step.

    Was he taking 2000 Vit C. That is probably a bit much but I doubt it will harm him. If I remember correctly from decades ago the worse it does is give you Diarrhea. I don't see it as a sign of a problem that he tries to protect himself. especially as he is working in the field - I imagine he sees patients and does not just talk on the phone. So being of Asian descent and a Dr he will have a greater need than most to keep himself safe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  4. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    If he’s a doctor, he’ll know that a balanced diet will supply all his essential nutrients.
     
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  5. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think I could best whatever the most prestigious medical journal in the world is saying
     
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  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, not for this. This is about getting your immune system as strong as possible. All the things are based on research. It is known that high levels of Vit D3 help people to fight infections but ---they are much higher than that recommended by Health Authorities, though I think Ireland has done research and suggests considerably higher. This might surprise you but apparently the so called recommended and max level of vitamins which are advised are not based on research. Some of the tablets are to fight inflamation but basically it is to build up your immune system and possibly re Zinc and Quercetin to stop you getting it. I remembered another which he took which was different to the recommendation. He took a well known sleep aid but not the recommended one which is Melatonin. Why something to help you sleep? Because it is known from trials that people who are getting a good nights sleep have a far stronger resistance to infections.

    I have prowled in my history and found the link

    https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_pub...cine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf

    PS although information on vitamins helpful to fight Covid-19 are in a lot of places I got the most information from a different Dr, one who has been working with patients with Covid.19
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  7. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you have a deficiency, then a vitamin supplement is appropriate.
    That link uses terms such as -
    “ Prophylaxis
    While there is very limited data (and none specific for COVID-19), the following “cocktail” may have a role in the prevention/mitigation of COVID-19 disease. While there is no high-level evidence that this cocktail is effective; it is cheap, safe and widely available.”
     
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  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am sorry SallyAlley I do not put your opinion above all the Drs I have heard on this. Yes, it is true that a healthy person eating a healthy diet does not need extra vitamins. It is also true that people with particular illnesses are given some as part of their treatment. For instance people with Breast cancer who are receiving some chemotherapies are offered Vit D3 and Calcium to stop their b ones going into osteoporosis. If this works all is well. If it does not they are put on a medication which itself can have problems. The vitamins which are suggested are suggested in an unusual situation, to stop you getting a virus or give you the strongest possibility of coming out of it with little or no damage.


    Yes, there has been no trials to find out if what they suggest works for Covid 19 and I have a feeling that what they are recommending and saying possibly has changed since I read it when they said it would be open to change and that what they were offering were things which had been seen to be effective in other situations.

    There is nothing stupid in taking vitamins and amino acids which are safe and not expensive. So if we take the ones which they have suggested. Vit C 500 mg. Now I first heard people saying that it would be no use in fighting the infection but since then I have heard again medical person after medical person saying it has been shown to be extremely good and people should take it. I have looked at that one no further so cannot say who is right and who is wrong but 500mg of Vitamin C is going to do you know harm.

    Zinc 75-100mg. Obviously Zinc is known to have a role to play against covid 19. If it gets into the cell it stops is replicating. This has been shown in trials at any length.

    D.3 1-4000u a day. This everyone and their dog is saying. There is also strong speculation that one of the key reasons why Black people are dying of this much more than white is because they have a low level of Vitamin D. Test have shown that the amount of Vitamin D a patient has, has a noticeable effect on how well they are able to fight the virus. They are much more likely to live given the same condition if they have at least what is considered normal levels of Vit D3. This vitamin is often lacking in oldies which may contribute to their poor outcome.

    It is believed that most people have some deficiency in Vitamin D which is why it is now recommended that everyone take it in the winter - unless you live in I think Sweden, where it is deliberately put in the food.

    They don't have Quercetin as a recommendation now but you will see they are questioning whether heath workers should be give chloroquine/hydroxychloroquin once weekly and they know it does the job it is claimed Quercetin does. I haven't heard of Famotidine before so don't know anything about it.

    I don't know these people but they appear to be protecting themselves by what they say. They do not know but there is good reason to believe they will be some help. When it first went up they said they could not say it would work with Covid 19 but these vitamins and amino acids had been found to be a help with other viruses. Most as I have said have now been looked into and investigated by everyone and their dog.

    Health workers are at substantial risk when working with covid-19 patients. It makes sense to give them as much protection as is possible.

    (I am going to have to go now. Goodnight :) )

    Edit; I thought that was a very small list. Another two which I have heard recommended strongly and which I think he might be taking are NAC and Selenium.


     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  9. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    We’ll have to agree to disagree. Famotidine is used to treat stomach ulcers.
     
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  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't agree to disagree. I gave you reasons for my position and also gave one example where Dr's recommend taking extra vitamins to protect you because of your medical condition. I did not just give my opinion. Please argue where you believe what I have said is wrong. It is the Pepcid in Famotidine which is supposed to offer some protection but I only heard that once and cannot remember what it was. Possibly because the virus is acid which it is. Just a very looseguess.

    but now I have to go.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  11. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Pepcid is a trade name for Famotidine. It may be administered to prevent stomach ulcers caused by the Prednisolone.
    I agree that vitamins may be required because of a medical condition.
     
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  12. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Fake News:

    THE REPORT GENERATED HEADLINES AND AT THE EXPENSE OF AN INEXPENSIVE, GENERIC, OFF-PATENT TREATMENT FOR A WIDELY FEARED DISEASE: A mysterious company’s coronavirus papers in top medical journals are unraveling.

    On its face, it was a major finding: Antimalarial drugs touted by the White House as possible COVID-19 treatments looked to be not just ineffective, but downright deadly. A study published on 22 May in The Lancet used hospital records procured by a little-known data analytics company called Surgisphere to conclude that coronavirus patients taking chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine were more likely to show an irregular heart rhythm—a known side effect thought to be rare—and were more likely to die in the hospital.

    Within days, some large randomized trials of the drugs—the type that might prove or disprove the retrospective study’s analysis—screeched to a halt. Solidarity, the World Health Organization’s (WHO’s) megatrial of potential COVID-19 treatments, paused recruitment into its hydroxychloroquine arm, for example.

    But just as quickly, the Lancet results have begun to unravel—and Surgisphere, which provided patient data for two other high-profile COVID-19 papers, has come under withering online scrutiny from researchers and amateur sleuths. They have pointed out many red flags in the Lancet paper, including the astonishing number of patients involved and details about their demographics and prescribed dosing that seem implausible. “It began to stretch and stretch and stretch credulity,” says Nicholas White, a malaria researcher at Mahidol University in Bangkok.

    Today, The Lancet issued an Expression of Concern (EOC) saying “important scientific questions have been raised about data” in the paper and noting that “an independent audit of the provenance and validity of the data has been commissioned by the authors not affiliated with Surgisphere and is ongoing, with results expected very shortly.”

    Meanwhile, the questions swirling around the Lancet paper have left leaders of the halted chloroquine trials weighing whether to restart. “The problem is, we are left with all the damage that has been done,” says White, a co-investigator on a trial of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 prevention that was halted at the request of U.K. regulators last week. Headlines proclaiming deadly effects will make it hard to recruit patients to key studies, he says. “The whole world thinks now that these drugs are poisonous.”

    Mission accomplished. But whose mission?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And the WHO have now resumed trials on it and said that having looked at the trials they have concerns with the study which led them to stop them without looking into the study,

    From 7 mins 53

     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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  14. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    We see Fake News in service of the political Left, seemingly on every current topic.
     
  15. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well I am most certainly on the Left!! It does look though that politics here has been put above medical needs. This should never have been about politics. I find it interesting that Stanford and the Lancet both appear to have been drawn into giving the wrong impression. That suggests people with authority are attempting to manipulate the research. In addition the press is not serving the people when it does not give them correct information - it would appear to get at Trump who I am no supporter of.

    I was fortunate in that I had been following this since early on and knew that both South Korea and China had been giving this to their patients from the beginning. I later learnt that was because previous research had shown it was effective against other Sars virus's.

    People were putting the low death rate in these countries in part down to their use of HLC. It is not and should not be a left/right thing. It should just be an interest in finding what is best to help people.;)

    PS it is not outside possibility that the intent to make the use of HLC obsolete is due to its cheapness and that some would prefer very expensive drugs like R to be used but definitely here something very wrong has been going on and possibly making it a left/right thing is a way of controlling it, stopping people having open minds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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  16. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad the Left has folks like you in it.
     
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  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, indeed, which is why (at least) France has decided to put the "medicine" back on trial. Meaning it reversed its position.

    The Lancet work was nonetheless "indicative" but in a matter so related to "life or death" a fullest investigation is necessary ...
     
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  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I know one of the researchers looking into this data and they concluded it could be plausible

    But do not forget that those calling for the data to be examined also have a vested interest in keeping their trials going so will challenge anything that disrupts those trials

    This is how academia works.

    From the outside it looks like an argument on steroids with little to no resolution possible but in reality this is a double triple quadruple cross check of basic data to ensure it is as valid as possible
     
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  19. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The information was indeed correct, just not to the standard necessary.

    Everything about money is politics. In the US, always has been. And likely, given present mentalities, always will be.

    You will note that France has reversed itself and put the "medicine" back on trial. Which is significant given that the doctor who developed it is trialing it in a French hospital ...
     
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  20. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Oh! Take off the tin hat please you are so much smarter than that!
     
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  21. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A fitting comment on this very overblown insignificant subject,
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    And more.........

    Authors Retract Study That Found Risks of Using Antimalaria Drug Against Covid-19

    Three authors involved in Lancet article that drew scrutiny said they couldn’t get full data set behind study

    Three authors of a large study that last month found antimalarials provided no benefit to treating Covid-19 infections, while increasing the risk of heart problems and death, retracted their findings.

    The authors said in a statement Thursday provided by The Lancet, the medical journal that published the study on May 22, that they decided to issue the retraction after Surgisphere Corp., the private company that provided the research data, refused to share the full, detailed data set as part of a review after outside researchers raised concerns.

    “We always aspire to perform our research in accordance with the highest ethical and professional guidelines,” said the authors, Mandeep Mehra, Frank Ruschitzka and Amit Patel. “We can never forget the responsibility we have as researchers to scrupulously ensure that we rely on data sources that adhere to our high standards. Based on this development, we can no longer vouch for the veracity of the primary data sources.”

    The authors also said they apologized for “any embarrassment or inconvenience that this may have caused.”
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/author...against-covid-19-11591299329?mod=hp_lead_pos3

    How many doctors did not use the drug and how many more could have been saved or suffered less had they.

     
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  23. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Care to revise and extend?
     
  24. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    How about you? Care to revise and extend now?
     
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  25. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    No. Whatever the Lancet says on Medical Matters is still good with me.

    Are anonymous posters on Internet discussion boards considered M.D.'s now?
     
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