The mentality of socialism versus capitalism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FatBack, Jan 9, 2022.

  1. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    No it is not socialism.

    Socialism is exactly the oppoosite of sharing which is always and strictly an individual choice. The instant ANYONE dictates what others will contribute it is nhot sharing , it is theft.

    Such a decision based on collective thinking is enslavement ensuring that everyone is forced in tot he lowest situaton.

    The police man works for the collective. The capitalist model allows all to succeed or fail. Most will succeed. Failures are not the responsibility of others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  2. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Why is it such a foreign thing to conservatives?

    You take an elderly cancer patient who was fired for calling in sick on Christmas and start going on about "responsibility" but meanwhile if someone dares object to your huge truck poisoning the air or your coal company strip mining the entire Appalachians or your giant wolf clone "dog" eating all the neighborhood children you start screaming FFFEEREEDDOMM and dropping not so veiled threats about the arsenal in your basement. We DO need some more responsibility and a little less freedom but in radically different areas.

    How is a 6 year old responsible for anything?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  3. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    So now socialism is NOT sharing.
    and collective thinking (as in this exemplar of sharing a solution to a traffic problem) is enslavement.

    and the policeman is a thief as he works for the collective.

    OK.
     
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  4. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Traffic slows to an utter crawl, eventually stops and there are still horrendous fatalities. Isn't it easier to just accept a certain amount of regulation in the interest of actually getting somewhere and/or doing something rather than just shouting FFRREEEDDOMM 24/7
     
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  5. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Capitalism benefits the whole community when everyone is equal.

    Unfortunately some suffer from illness, the illnesses of others and have to be carers, they are mentally unable to work, they have been defrauded, someone has stolen from them, they have family problems, they lost a court case, I could go on.
    It isn't good enough to call yourselves a Christian country and assume the difficulties of these people is their fault.

    jcarlilesiu said:
    Does it ever occur to you that people need to be held responsible for their lot in life?

    No they do not.
    It is not their responsibility to be born into a comfortable home, educated well, be one of only two or three children in a household, be white where society says it matters, have healthy parents or be healthy themselves.

    I cannot understand why you assume everyone is perfect and has the same opportunities. It is just cruel to be dumped like a faulty piece of rubbish.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  6. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    In America today where a person is in life is a sum total of the choices they have made that brought them to that moment .

    The moment a person realizes that and embraces it and stops blaming others for their situation is the moment they take control of their own destiny.

    Of course handicapped people are a slightly different scenario.... To a degree.

    Even a handicap person can overcome a certain degree of difficulties and succeed in their life.
     
  7. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    That is correct.

    Socialism is not sharing. never has been and never will be. Sharing is strictly an individual choice. You cannot share what is not yours. There is no such thing as collective thinking.

    The policeman is an enforcer.
     
  8. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Traffic slows because individuals choose to be more careful.

    You are quite wrong. There are typically no fatalities in those situations.
     
  9. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    People are forced to obey laws in any political / economic system.
     
  10. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Can you cite data supporting this?
     
  11. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Are they?

    If the laws forbidding murder were repealed would you start killing people?
     
  12. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Can you?

    I can cite traffic circles which are catching on state side. Environmentalists love them but there are other more practical reasons for them. The number of traffic accidents and fatalities decline when they are put in place. The main difference is no traffic signals. People are left to their own judgement when to enter / exit the circle and it works better.
     
  13. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. You have to ask?

    That has nothing to do with it. Those who violate laws are prosecuted aka forced to obey. It works the same in every system.

    You are not pro-capitalism, you are pro-anarchy, and you think only socialist nations have laws which everyone has to obey.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  14. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    If we're having a conversation about whether we should have socialism or capitalism, we're having the wrong conversation. The two are not mutually exclusive. We've had socialistic elements in this country since it's founding. This country would not have succeeded without that blend.

    Advocating for a full-on shift to socialism is stupid, but there's absolutely no reason that you have to choose full-on socialism or full-on capitalism in the first place. This is fake dichotomy that is used to divide people. People have poured their own subjective meanings into these terms which results in socialism vs capitalism arguments being more emotional and tribal than fact based. Again, there is nothing that stops a people from incorporating elements of both into their society. Anybody that tells you differently is blowing smoke straight up your ass.
     
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  15. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism = Government owned and operated means of production.

    And you are right, some countries have more of it and some have less of it.

    Communism = Government owned and operated means of production + abolishment of private property.

    Communism is misery.
     
  16. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Traffic circles ARE a good idea but only if people recognize the LAW concerning them which is, TRAFFIC IN THE CIRCLE HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY. It's NOT just your "judgment" it's a fracking LAW. I can't count the number of times I've had some ******* behind me try to move my car with his horn because he apparently thinks I'm supposed to pull right out into oncoming traffic, but it's probably about the same as the number of people who WILL pull right out in front of you. Oh, and the 15mph warning MEANS something.

    Again, LAWS, not your "judgment" unless you enjoy explaining yourself to a judge.

    Thank god for defensive driving.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  17. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    No they are not.

    Thaty has EVERYTHING to do with it. You are either FORCED to obey such laws and not to commit murder or you would have at it and commit murder without such laws.

    Prosecuting someone for violating such a law is not forcing them to obey it is in fact reacting only after they commit murder which is a huge difference.

    I do not at all advocate anarchy. Most people would not rape or murder or steal even if laws were all repealed. Those laws are negative requirements which forbifd certian actions which harm others, No one is harmed by not commiting murder.

    Laws which require obediance to someone elses standards are an entirely diffferent matter and do cause harm to the individual. You do not know what I think and nothing I have said supports your conclusions.
     
  18. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    They work because when left to their own judgement and devices people are better off. It is not so much recognition of some right of way law as it is dont go trying to force your way into the traffic circle or you will wreck your car. Therefore people are more careful.

    It is in fact left to the drivers judgment which is why they work There is no signal of when to enter or exit it is a judgement call and nothing else.
     
  19. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Love this analogy but it is only partly true.
    Socialism, for many people, absolutely rocks for a while. When the Soviets at Stalin's orders confiscated the grain from Ukraine without compensation, it was as if they had a boost in wealth. When you take someone's stuff without paying them, you have enriched yourself some. Of course, you can only do this so often as you're killing off the people you stole from.
    Longer term? Example: Guy becomes a medical doctor and makes $3 million a year. There is a socialist revolution, driving him down to $35K for a family of 4 per year. Like everyone else. He has done all of this stuff to become a doctor. He's going to continue to be a doctor. So people get $3 million in services for only $35K. But the next gen? No one willingly wants to do $3 million in work for $35 K, so at best, you'll find some people, stick a gun in their face and tell them they are to be doctors. You are not going to get $3 million in work out of them. So in a generation or 2, your country becomes a **** hole.
    A major fear of this is that once a leftist has spent everyone else's money in a given nation, s/he moves to another free rich nation to live off of it... until turning it into a **** hole too. Where does the US population go if they do this to us?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  20. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no difference in regards to obeying laws, and it has nothing to do with socialism. You can choose to violate laws in any system, and in every system you will pay the price,

    Like.....? You mean like North Korean totalitarian communism? Why confuse the terms? If you mean totalitarian communism, then just say so. People call Denmark socialist, and then talk about evils of totalitarian communism, as if that was the case in Denmark.

    They work because they are governed by "right of way" laws, which people are "forced" to obey.
     
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  21. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    You must be the guy behind me. If you can see another car in the circle the law is you let him go by. In VERY heavy traffic you might let it be as up to the next intersection but even then discretion is the better part.

    Try pulling out too close to a cop one time and see how far your 'judgment' gets you.

    SLOW DOWN, what's your hurry anyway? You should have left earlier and remember, 'late' is never on time
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  22. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea where opinions originate. I have lived in Cuba, Italy, South Korea, Mexico and Japan at different times in my life. I have done fine in each place. I wouldn't trade any of them for the U.S. I have visited most of the countries on the list. I could live happily in most of them but I still wouldn't trade them for the U.S., my second and chosen home country. Freedom fosters diversity of life quality. The freedom to gain a good quality of life allows success for some and failure for others. But the freedom itself is the important benefit. None of the countries I have visited or where I have resided have as much freedom as Americans have. It is a very big deal. Not so big a deal for those who drew up their list. This is truly a great country - political division, poverty and other warts included. It is great because of personal freedom.
     
  23. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What kind of freedoms are you referring to? The Dutch advertise themselves as the freest country in the world, and Danish say the same thing. Maybe it boils down to the things they find important and things you find important.
     
  24. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    Why? Where is it written that a person can just expect to have their healthcare costs paid for by other people just on the basis on having been born? And why can't people opt out of any government healthcare if they choose to? TANSTAAFL
     
  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, the amount of government per capita in those countries is virtually staggering. Taxes are very high and high taxes reduce freedom. Freedom to me is the ability to do what one wants so long as it doesn't interfere with the right of others to exercise the same thing. We have laws defining what that means.

    Places like Cuba, which was a capitalist dictatorship when I lived there and now is a communist dictatorship and South Korea which is nearly a police state don't have freedoms like Americans have. These are extreme examples. Obviously Netherlands and Denmark have freedoms closer to ours. Japan is a clean, **** and span modern first world country with an oppressive society. Freedom is limited, not so much by government, but by the society itself. I would prefer living in Mexico to living there. Italy has more freedom than Netherlands or Denmark but has a lower standard of living. Italians, happy as they are, don't make as much money as the Dutch. Add it all up and it isn't hard to see why the world wants to emigrate to the U.S. They aren't emigrating to the Netherlands. For one thing there isn't room for them in such a small country.
     

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