The Not so Subtle Moral Decay of the US Military

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Jazz, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Not really, the UN just takes their word for it, what else could they possibly do. However, there are estimates that far exceed what China reports.

    https://chinapower.csis.org/military-spending/

    I would imagine other authoritarian regimes would also under state their military budgets.
     
  2. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    That paragraph tells me a lot about you

    Thats exactly how the apologists for communism talked back in the day

    You really believe all that marxist crap dont you?
     
  3. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    So even with the highest case scenario from your cite at 250 B, the next 7 countries still spend less combined than the US. And let's not forget that all these figures are pure speculation and the US overall spending on private contractors and merc institutions are not on the US defense spending books.......Nor is military aid for foreign governments the US considers strategic allies.
     
  4. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    It is not so much that I believe Marxist crap as much as I have studied Marx and other philosophers and their arguments over the years so I have an understanding of the context of what they are saying and the critique they argue regarding unfettered capitalism and it's inherent instability and tendency to concentrate wealth and political power in the hands of a very select few. I can critique socialism from a basis of knowledge rather that just demonizing it all because I have studied the different facets of the argument. For instance, I believe in private property so that puts me in a certain class that folks who call me a commie or think I am apologizing for state capitalist regimes of the past such as the SU don't understand and miss completely.

    Most people on this forum don't understand any of the historical or economic context and so have learned to just demonize and dismiss out of hand anything that criticizes the free market fundamentalism that has come to dominate the American political and economic mainstream. So many just lap up the prevailing dogma without even understanding the historical context of what they are saying nor understanding that their opinions have largely been manufactured for them through a culture of corporate propaganda and mass media concentration that just does not give voice to dissenting opinion. The talking heads on what you call fake news really are fake news but not in the way you think. They do not so much manufacture fake news as much as they do not allow any critical voices against the prevailing consumer corporate culture.

    Don't forget I live in a country where democratic social principles such as universal health care and progressive marginal tax rates (under threat but still not destroyed as they have been there) are taken for granted as respected and even beloved parts of our social structure so I understand how these types of principles work to mitigate the worst excesses of corporate capitalism.
     
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  5. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Thats your first mistake

    Capitalism is not unfettered

    Its actually closely regulated

    And milked for dollars by the greedy government
     
  6. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    But the government has been reducing corporate and individual taxes for decades since the golden era of that ended in the mid-70's and deregulation of the economy went on under Reagan and the Bushes. Clinton repealed Glass/Steagall.

    Regulation under Trump is becoming almost non-existant. The people who are supposed to uphold organizations like the EPA are actively destroying their ability to regulation and this is happening across the board.

    The Libertarian model as espoused by folks like the Koch's, the Mercers, Adelson and all the other huge capitalists many of whom have controlled the political process through campaign financing is certainly for unfettered capitalism and that is for the most part what we have.

    We have more wealth concentrated in fewer hands than we did during the gilded era of the robber barons. What would you call that.....fettered capitalism?
     
  7. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    You could cut regulation in half and not come close to unfettered

    One factor that has concentrated wealth since the 1990s is globalism

    The wealthy can move their capital around the globe

    But workers cannot move their labor so easily
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  8. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's capitalists....mostly American corporations and their alternatives in western vassal states moving to where labour and environmental regulations are almost non-existant. Certainly that has become global but that is largely your corporations moving to Mexico, China and Bangladesh.

    How can that be anything but a move towards unfettered, deregulated capitalism? No one is saying it isn't global.
     
  9. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Globalism created the multi-national companies that can defy local governments

    And globalism that is gamed behind the scenes by a mercantilist nation like china is nothing like unfettered capitalism

    Its practically the direct opposite in fact
     
  10. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sometimes beauty can be a visible outcome of truth, but not always. What I did notice is the further one gets from it the uglier everything becomes.

    I know that Alexander the Great made himself a god, yet he was seen as part of God's plan in Christianity, since it was the concepts from the East that turned a Judaic faith into a Christian one. What I didn't know is that much of it probably came from Zoroastrianism. Thank you for that.

    The combination of designs and sheer beauty of Iranian mosques overwhelms me.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Ironic considering Alex was the man who brought down the original Persian empire.

    Don't you think there is a beauty in symetery of human thought as well?
     
  12. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Alexander was an interesting figure with an interesting idea: He wanted to fuse the best of the Hellenic world with the Persian one, to lay the foundations for his vision of a universal empire. Because his vision was rejected by chauvinists in his own camp, and wasn't quite familiar to the people on the other side in Iran, Alexander ended up not being a popular figure in Persian folklore. But although he did one thing that I truly wish he hadn't, namely burning down Persepolis in what appears to have been a moment of uncharacteristic drunken rage, I actually like the Alexander I have come to learn about. And, interestingly, in the past couple of decades, we have seen a growing number of Iranian kids being named "Eskander" (Alexander), when before, that name was more infamous than famous in Iran:)

    On a couple of other issues you raise -- and I hope I don't offend, as that is not my intention:

    While Iranian religions certainly had a huge influence on Christianity and new Judaism, and also Islam and other religions (as covered in many western sources, including in this book), ultimately I find it sad that Western traditions were never exposed to the greatest work of epic ever written. (And I say this with all due respect to the great ancient Greek works, the Iliad and the Odyssey, which were rightly influential). But Iran's epic, the Shahnameh, or the Book of Kings, written by the Persian poet Ferdowsi in 50,000 couplets, is something more. A blend of legend, myth, and history, with beautiful tales, it chronicles the story of Iran, and the world, from the beginning of time to the Arab invasion of Iran in the 7th century! It is the most influential work in Persian literature -- what helped not just the Persian language to survive the Arab onslaught -- but it also is what gave the Persians an alternative view of the history from that which was presented to them through the folklore of the Abrahamic religions. I wish the Shahnameh would one day become as accessible, and read, in the West as the surge in popularity of the works of another (but very different in genre) great Persian poet, namely Rumi. The Abrahamic conception of things, compared to the Iranian one, as can come across clearly reading the Shahnameh, deserves to be looked at anew.

    If the Shahnameh did gain greater popularity in the West, it might even help with the subject of this thread namely the "moral decay of the military". Much of the story of the Shahnameh revolves around a legendary Iranian general, named Rustam, fighting Iran's enemies in a life that spanned several hundred years:) In it, we are taught what it means to be heroic, to fight and if necessary die for Iran, but to also be respectful, kind and generous towards those who are vanquished.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh
     
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  13. 22catch

    22catch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Goodness @Jazz this is by far the most polarizing, pointed, OP or even post I've ever seen you make, not saying some it isnt true but to what purpose? This source as and your opinion are so..typical of today's climate. Why give in? It's why I havnt been around much, it's boring all the hysterics and shallow self serving hyperbole running amok around here and abroad. Sigh You are a true intellect...jesus
     
  14. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For now I am tired, but thanks for the compliment... I missed you!
     
  15. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Reading works of another culture does give an understanding of how others think, and it's needed badly in the world today where people can only see others through the narrow scope of their own upbringing - which is limited. As for the moral decay in our military, well that's understandable when we were raised believing we were the good guys, and then found out differently. At least that's how I see it.

    As for the burning of Persopolis it was a horror, and I can understand Alexander being made the 'boogeyman' to Persian children as he was in India, but he had some good points - other than being a good strategist. I read Alexander encouraged one tribe to stop killing the elderly and to take care of them instead. He also encouraged his soldiers to marry Persian women which shocked the 'elitist' Greeks.

    As for our history, it only covers civilizations that directly affects us. When I was young it began with ancient Egypt, Classical Greece, then Rome, the Middle Ages, Protestant Reformation, British and then American history. I didn't even know there was a Byzantine Empire - which freaked out my father. But that's understandable, only so much can be covered. It does affect how people think though.
     
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  16. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    All I can think of, being aware that the military spends 54% of our entire federal budget, is how many people are stealing left and right from it right under our noses. How many Generals, Congressmen, Senators, and yes, even the President of the US is using our tax dollars intended for military spending and defense of this country to line their pocket and profit personally? There was a big 'to-do' a short while ago about the exorbitant price the military was paying for things like $10,000 toilet seats. Now we're talking about corruption that's deep inside the Pentagon with $11 million dollars spent on refueling C17's coming from Alaska heading to Kuwait and ordered to stop to refuel at a schmucky airport in Ireland and the US government has to pay top price for that fuel while we have military bases all over the place en route where they SHOULD refuel and save the US taxpayer millions of dollars.

    The US taxpayer is historical reticent to disapprove of military spending, of any sort, and it's only because it's hammered into us from the day we're born that we have to support the military. And yes, certainly as patriots we do. Are we really expected to support this type of graft? We're supporting it to such a degree that we're turning our heads, and closing our eyes to any hints of improprieties and illegalities and totally dismissing blatant misuse of US taxpayer money.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  17. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Hasn't the Pentagon lost 2.3 T dollars or so without any oversight or accountability whatever? And then people whine about taxation for social programs being theft..........
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  18. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    What you are failing to understand is that the globalists you are decrying are the very same as capitalists you approve of enriching through tax breaks and corporate subsidies.

    The are exactly the same gone global through deregulation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  19. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Corporations dont pay taxes

    The pas the tax on to the ultimate consumer of their products
     
  20. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    In this country for the last several decades, corporations get to write the rules that regulate them. Pretty damn cool, eh? :banana:
     
  21. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Want a better army RAISE BETTER KIDS.
     
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  22. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    I agree that the system is not perfect

    But put the biggest, baddest, meanest American corporation up against the Chinese Communist Party and the corps will get crushed every time
     
  23. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Peace always need all the sides involved. War needs only one aggressor. If you are not ready for peace or if your conditions are purely unacceptable - there are no arguments to make this intention look like peaceful one.
    I don't say that you are worse than the others. Pls, get me right. I might be mistakening. But I still feel the same scar which I felt the last time. :)

    1. I understand that you are for world peace. That was not the issue. The issue is that for me as a russian the life of israeli, iranian, american or whatever kid is pretty much the same 'price'. And in fact political value of life itself is more or less even. But internal policy makes these equal lives somewhat different due to 'protectionism' (if we speak in an economical way about policy). I believe in your good intentions as I do for many other guys who don't agree to you.
    2. The blood of your kids is more close than the blood of the other kids. And I haven't said anything that can be seen as justification of terrorism no matter if it came from any country or nationality of the world. The guys who support Israeli war propaganda are not any better. There is no way to solve the problems by force. It is a very temporary way. Israel had a good experience ('good' in this case) to protect its sovereinty in arab-israeli wars. But it is still surrounded by hostile people and in my opinion is doomed to disappear the next day when the balance of power will inevitably change. Whether it happens tomorrow or in 10 000 years - doesn't really matter. As it goes - the people will continue to die with both sides sure that they are not killing kids but protecting them. It ain't a smart behaviour if you have a look at the situation from this point of veiw. But having the same attitude from the other side is not any better! :) It's just the same.
    I feel you would agree to this statement. But you didn't.
    3. I don't say that you already belong to any group. You pretty much are monitoring the situation as your nickname says. But look that if you have a group with a+b, which means that if tomorrow Hezbollah takes the whole population of Iran and uses it for war with Israel you won't have any arguments to stay aside. You will join this against all the good intentions you described in 1. :) And I can imagine it tomorrow. And our Israeli and American 'partners' are able to see the same. Now this IS a problem which might be not the most bloody, but it is inside you and you are able to change. I don't say - surrender. I say about the change.

    The war between states which is quite likely to happen any time in the territory of Syria (right after the civil war) will certainly make the mutual bloody bills deeper and more expensive.

    People are killed several ways. Good standards of living and pensions killed much more than all the arms. Since the people are counting for the state to get support when they are old and don't rely on their own kids - they don't need many kids. And this is why the population of developed countries is on decline without the people's blood in the street. From some point of view this could be seen as a murder as well. Military operations are also killing the innocent. It can be the terrorists hiding there or a planned provocation (to get the armed people from their shelters to attack). Anyway it's the logics of military and I bet that the generals who order to kill the kids are not thinking about pure murder. They think about the lives of the people - in their case lives of their soldiers, who could either shoot the enemy the easiest way or expect severe casualties. I mean this is also natural (awful! but natural) and doesn't depend on nationality, religion, political views etc.

    So the root of all the evil in my opinion is not the one side of the conflict but the subject of the conflict. If there is no problem in people's minds - no kids are getting killed.
     
  24. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I had responded to another post which suggested things that didn't fit my view. To this post, my basic response is this: for better or worse, Iran had a huge revolution and made its choice then. That choice was to confront US/Israeli hegemony in the region. I wouldn't have made that choice, because Iran is not strong enough to carry this burden on its own. But once the choice has been made, you are right: I will go with my side. And I think that is the side with the much stronger arguments, except the one that matters the most immediately, and that is brute force.
     
  25. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Same as it ever was, people just look at the past with rose tinted glasses.
     

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