The Pentagon said it wouldn’t use depleted uranium rounds against ISIS.

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Robert, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I'm no expert but I know a few things and from my recollection being a Tanker years ago I thought that depleted uranium rounds were Sabot rounds used against heavy armor?

    I don't think ISIS is rolling around with T-72s and above so we don't exactly need to use depleted uranium sabot rounds against them anyway. This sounds like a ploy for unnecessary public praise for choosing not to do something you don't need to do anyway...

    I'm pretty sure if ISIS was rolling around in tank battalions we wouldn't decide to keep our anti tank shells on the self....
     
  2. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are the fraidy cats fighting over DU or over the way DU is delivered?

    My main thesis is that DU is not nearly as dangerous as the public appears to believe.

    As a risk, it is so minor that rarely if ever is that a consideration. Also where are those tanks the A-10 goes after? Normally were people are not in the way as to women and children. Troops are there but they either get killed or survive and are not subject to DU problems.

    OK, you put more detail into the elimination time for humans. Thanks a lot.
     
  3. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Weapons of ISIS.

    My comments have been directed to counter the claims that DU is a long lasting risk to the population.

    We have evolved into methods of delivery.

    This site does not say ISIS has any of the M1 Tanks or variants, but gives an otherwise extensive report.

    As effective as DU is, I would imagine the field commanders would keep using it on appropriate targets.

    http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/weapons-of-isis.asp
     
  4. hoosier88

    hoosier88 Well-Known Member

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    DU is a long lasting risk to the population, it's a heavy metal, which causes chemical poisoning if it gets into the body, especially into the lungs. The dust from DU strike on armor contaminates about 100 ft. radius from the strike. Multiple strikes leave overlapping zones of contamination.

    We (the nation using DU weapons - many of the major militaries of the World have them) should clean up the environment, bury what's left of the targets, probably scrape up & bury the topsoil. Fortunately, the DU dust is heavy, & so it won't disperse as easily as nuke ashes/fallout.

    The neonatal health risk should be straightforward to assess - just compare before & after stillbirths, abnormal deliveries, underweight or aborted fetus, fetal malformations, etc. That data is there, more than likely. There's some difficulty in disaggregating cause & effect to make sure that causes are correctly identified. & of course, you're trying to conduct medical interviews - histories, blood draws, & etc. in not-very-secure areas. The quality & fidelity & issues of trust between translators & the people being interviewed, the various factions in government involved, the various tribes & flavors of Islam, & the relationship/trust felt by the interviewees in the doctors & attending staff.

    It's a tough job, but it should be doable. The question is, How much interest is there in getting all the data, conducting all the interviews, gathering all the evidence possible & publishing whatever conclusions the data point to?
     
  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, given the actual level of risk, you might have to make and eat mud pies to get any of it. As dense as it is, it is darned difficult to float in the air.

    DU is clearly not understood by the public. I have previously posted facts supplied by government.

    I knew little of it other than the uranium part. I did study chemistry in college. But I was not informed on if it was dangerous.

    In the 80s, I did research. Turns out it is a left wing complaint but the bottom line, it is not as risky as you or me getting hit by a fast moving truck. We tend to evade being in their path. I do at least.
     
  6. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Eh...I just got done dealing with ISIS a couple months ago and I can honestly say that I didn't see any of that stuff on that list lol. Well We saw the manpads and a few Humvees but as far as the heavy equipment like the tanks and BMP's no...And if they had them they didn't bring them to Mosul...which I would think would be kinda useful there for them...

    There's a Blackhawk on that list lol...I don't recall seeing ISIS flying a Blackhawk either. Or flying a MiG...

    I think this is a list of stuff ISIS may have had at one point. Or maybe it's stuff that they found laying around when they were taking over Iraq, but I don't think they were using much of it or if they did it didn't last long. I don't think it would be very wise for ISIS to try to launch their one MiG any time soon...
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Actually, ISIS has been using armored "Technicals" for years now.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They are crude, but effective against small arms fire (and some even enough armor to prevent heavy machine gun fire).
     
  8. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And which the Iraqi Army has proven can easily be killed by RPGs and TOWs. No need for DU.
     
  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And are you aware what equipment that we use has DU as part of it's operation?

    Well, not many. The main weapons for the A-10, AH-64 and AH-1 all use DU guns. I am not even sure if there is a conventional munition for those weapons. Also the heavy machine guns for the M1 and M2 use them, but we have not use those in Iraq since we left there years ago.

    The only other system I can think of we would still use there now that uses DU munitions is C-RAM. And since that weapon has to be able to penetrate the reinforced body of incoming artillery rounds, DU is the only way to ensure that is done before it reaches the target.

    Yea, RPGs and TOWs can be used to take out technicals. But why put people at risk on the ground when you have aircraft around that can do the job instead? And the risk to civilians in using a machine gun is a lot lower than in using rockets.
     
  10. hoosier88

    hoosier88 Well-Known Member

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    Yah. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Ammunition for a list:

    "Ammunition[edit]

    "Most military use of depleted uranium has been as 30 mm caliber ordnance, primarily the 30 mm PGU-14/B armour-piercing incendiary round from the GAU-8 Avenger cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II used by the United States Air Force. 25 mm DU rounds have been used in the M242 gun mounted on the U.S. Army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the Marine Corps's LAV-25.

    "The U.S. Marine Corps uses DU in the 25 mm PGU-20 round fired by the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon of the AV-8B Harrier, and also in the 20 mm M197 gun mounted on AH-1 Cobra helicopter gunships. The United States Navy's Phalanx CIWS's M61 Vulcan Gatling gun used 20 mm armor-piercing penetrator rounds with discarding plastic sabots made using depleted uranium, later changed to tungsten.

    "Another use of depleted uranium is in kinetic energy penetrators, anti-armor rounds such as the 120 mm sabot rounds fired from the British Challenger 1, Challenger 2,[32] M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams.[33] Kinetic energy penetrator rounds consist of a long, relatively thin penetrator surrounded by a discarding sabot. Staballoys are metal alloys of depleted uranium with a very small proportion of other metals, usually titanium or molybdenum. One formulation has a composition of 99.25% by mass of depleted uranium and 0.75% by mass of titanium. Staballoys are approximately 1.67 times as dense as lead and are designed for use in kinetic energy penetrator armor-piercing ammunition. The US Army uses DU in an alloy with around 3.5% titanium.





    1987 photo of Mark 149 Mod 2 20mm depleted uranium ammunition for the Phalanx CIWS aboard USS Missouri.

    "According to 2005 research,[34] at least some of the most promising tungsten alloys that have been considered as replacement for depleted uranium in penetrator ammunitions, such as tungsten-cobalt or tungsten-nickel-cobalt alloys, also possess carcinogenic properties: rats implanted with a pellet of such alloys developed lethal rhabdomyosarcoma within a few weeks.

    "Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening[35] and flammable.[30] On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp.[35] The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to ignite.[30] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.

    "The DU content in various ammunition is 180 g in 20 mm projectiles, 200 g in 25 mm ones, 280 g in 30 mm, 3.5 kg in 105 mm, and 4.5 kg in 120 mm penetrators. DU was used during the mid-1990s in the U.S. to make hand grenades, cluster bombs, and land mines, but those applications have been discontinued, according to Alliant Techsystems.[citation needed] The US Navy used DU in its 20 mm Phalanx CIWS guns, but switched in the late 1990s to armor-piercing tungsten.

    "Only the US and the UK have acknowledged using DU weapons.[36]

    "In a three-week period of conflict in Iraq during 2003, it was estimated that over 1000 tons of depleted uranium munitions were used.[37]"

    (My emphasis - more detail @ the URL)

    The nuclear fuel processing plants in the US have been very, very busy.
     
  11. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The A-10, AH-64, and Ah-1's guns all have AP-I alternative rounds.
     
  12. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Wow, an article copy and pasted from Wikipedia, which talks about a conflict almost a decade and a half ago.

    Colour me underwhelmed.
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Wow, got some information on that?

    Because as far as I am aware, they have API and HEI.

    HEI, that is the alternate. High Explosive Incendiary. Yea, so instead of using a round that is no more dangerous then lead, the safer alternative is throwing around high explosive shells.

    Good, real good. How much more can we expand the kill radius and cause even more unneeded civilian casualties.
     
  14. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    We know AP-I rounds exist for all of those guns in addition to the DU because every single one of those guns uses an ammunition type shared by other weapons that definitely have that ammo.

    The A-10 uses the same rounds as the Goalkeeper, the Cobra uses the same rounds as the Vulcan, and the Apache uses the same rounds as the Aden and DEFA cannons.

    The kill radius on a ~30mm HEI round is only a few feet. If civilians are that close to armored vehicles on an active battlefield, they are going to get killed anyways when the thing explodes even if you are using a DU round.
     
  15. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that right there is your justification for their use.

    War is a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*), but you have to exploit strategies like these to win wars. Shooting people isn't nice either. That's war.
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Uhhh, the API round is aluminum wrapped around a core of Depleted Uranium.

    In other words, the API round is the DU round you seem to be opposed to.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    It is a Heavy Metal, which is what is mostly used for munitions.

    And every heavy metal (including copper, iron, lead, tungsten, cobalt, etc) causes known environmental and health hazards.
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Except ISIS doesn't have the 8th Shock Army with 5,000 tanks poised to invade the fulda Gap.

    They have a bare handful of uparmored humvees and technicals with welded on Mad Max armor.

    There is zero reason why we need to use DU against them when we have other anti-armor weapons more than capable of destroying their vehicles.
     
  19. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Nope.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_incendiary/armor-piercing_ammunition

    Tungsten carbide and powdered zirconium is not DU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Nope.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_incendiary/armor-piercing_ammunition

    Tungsten carbide and powdered zirconium is not DU.
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Did you even read your own reference?

    Here, notice this at the bottom:

    PGU-27A/B TP/ PGU-28A/B SAPHEI / PGU-30A/B TP-T

    That is talking about a round made for the 20mm cannons that are used in most aircraft, like the F-15, F-16 and F-22.
    It is not talking about all such ammunition., nor ammunition for other weapon systems like the CIWS and A-10.

    Yes, they did look into using tungsten for the 30mm GAU-8, but it was decided to not go forward since as I said, tungsten has almost the same hazards as DU does.

    Now, can you provide a reference that talks about the 30mm GAU-8 ammunition that is used in the A-10 being made out of something other than Depleted Uranium?
     
  21. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The A-10 uses the same round as the Goalkeeper system. The Goalkeeper can load AP-I and HE-I rounds without DU in them. If the Goalkeeper can fire them, by definition so can the A-10.
     
  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not even a US system.

    Now provide a reference where the A-10 uses such ammunition. Not a weapon that uses the same munition in a completely different country.

    The US can even make a discarding sabot round for the 5.56mm M-16 that uses fuzzy worms as their projectile. Why not, the armed forces of Equestria use it after all.
     
  23. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    Questerr, et al,

    OK,,, I agree with this. We do not need DU rounds in this application.

    (COMMENT)

    My question is the basis for the claim that Depleted Uranium (DU) is any more dangerous to the life and limb of the hostile opponent than anything else we through at them. After all, the intent --- once the ordnance is released --- is to "kill" the opponent.

    Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL) is as effective as both sides apply it. Which would you rather have in terms of Customary and IHL?

    The after effects of being burned alive by one opponent.
    --------------------- OR -----------------------------
    The heavy metal complications by possible DU exposure which is approximately 40% less radioactive than natural uranium; and which emits alpha and beta particles, rather than gamma rays.
    [/list]

    What is the threat and who are we trying to protect?

    Has anyone looked in on the deaths in training accidents (in the hundreds annually) compared to the number of deaths associated to DU?

    Is there a valid reason to worry about this. Seriously, with all the other dangers on the training ground and under combat conditions, is this really worth the time, concern and effort?

    I know, I'm a neanderthal who is a heartless and barbaric Philistine, with the mind of an inelegant amoeba. But as I see it, the proper way to exhaust the inventory of DU ordnance is to expend them on the DAESH and any other radical Islamic asymmetric fighters. Who cares if they expire from heavy metal exposure from a 183gr 5.56×45mm or 5,100 rounds of 30mm DU ammunition by A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft (1,524kg of DU).

    Maybe we should just pull-out and just let DAESH go ahead cultures clash and just deal with the survivor.

    Most Respectfully,
    R​
     
  24. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    FFS, the Goalkeeper uses the same exact GAU-8 gun firing 30 X 173mm ammo that the A-10 does. If the Goalkeeper can fire a round, the A-10 can fire a round.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The issue is that DU remains toxic for a very long time. The issue isn't ISIS dying from heavy metal exposure. Its civilians 30 years from now living in the same area dying from it.​
     
  25. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't believe I said against ISIS, just when reasonably necessary.
     

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