The price of being principled vs loyal in politics.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by robini123, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I respect Mitt Romney because he places his own principles above party loyalty. But what if all Republicans were like Romney? Meaning that all Republicans marched to their own beat as opposed to falling into line behind Trump? I argue it would be chaos! All the fighting, jockeying for position, a party pulled in so many different directions would be ripped apart. So while I respect Romney’s principles I also understand why he catches so much flack for placing principles above party loyalty. The same applies to Democrats who are brave enough to break from the party in a principled stand.

    There is utility to having a loyalty to the tribe aka political party. But the loyalty comes at a steep price, the surrendering of a large part of our objectivity and a suspension or abandonment of some of our principles. While we may want to speak out against a perceived negative within the group, the fear of social pushback keeps us in check. Those who speak out become the nail that sticks out and few are willing to be principled when the cost is being shamed and shunned by the group (the hammer that pounds the nail). This is why so few people take a principled stand against their own group or those who lead it and have popular support.

    I place my principles over loyalty to anyone and any that would demand I place loyalty to them or a group above my principles will be shamed and shunned by me.
     
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  2. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    I notice you never mentioned a principle...
     
  3. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    So Romney is the only one not sticking to party first? :roflol:I guess you haven't noticed all the Republicans who have publicly criticized Trump or made accusations against him. Establishment GOP supports Trump about as much as the DNC does. The whole reason the DNC is able to get away with so much is because they do walk in lockstep and cover for each other. The GOP are cowards who are afraid of the politics of personal destruction from the MSM and the Left and will not take a stand that will unleash the hell hounds.
     
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  4. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    That is because the post is not about a specific principle, the post is about placing principles over political loyalty which requires no discussion of a specific principle. Placing principles over political loyalty can be a principle in and of itself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  5. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I never claimed that Romney was the “the only one not sticking to party
     
  6. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I never claimed that Romney was the “the only one not sticking to party first”. Those who criticize the President are the exception rather than the rule and out of those who criticize him few if any will vote against him in when the impeachment moves to the Senate. I think most Republican politicians fear the wrath of Trump supporters if they vote against the President as opposed to fearing the liberal press.
     
  7. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jealousy isn't a principle. Mit is just jelly
     
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  8. PPark66

    PPark66 Active Member

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    Umm...isn’t a party a set of principles?

    Therein lies the conundrum of the Republican Party with Trump.
     
  9. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    That's how I would view it too if I were a Trump supporter. Those who do not have loyalty to party or politician tend to have their character assassinated by the mob. Like I said, the nail that sticks out gets hammered when loyalty trumps a principled stand. Politics is about loyalty and when principles like not injecting bias into an investigation are breached then the principle is abandoned for the sake of party loyalty. Both parties have abandoned the aforementioned principle as it gets in the way of each side furthering their political agenda. Politics is Machiavellian where the ends justify the means , even when the means is the abandonment of previously espoused principles. Politics is tribal and tribalism makes partisans predictable.
     
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  10. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Principles are equally applied to those we dislike as well as those we like. Suspendible principles when it is politically advantageous to do so renders said principles meaningless. Principles that are unevenly applied is a hypocritical double standard. Both sides have one set of rules for the "in" group and another for the "out" group thus both sides are guilty of hypocrisy. If Republicans were principled they would vote Trump guilty of using the Office of the President to investigate a man who may be running against Trump in 2020. If roles were reversed (if Trump were a Democrat investigating a prominent Republican adversary) they sure would. The Democrats are no better in that if roles were reversed and Trump were a Democrat they would be defending him with the same vigor that Trump supporters defend Trump. Both sides are rotten to the core with bias yet are oblivious to their own hypocrisy. BOth sides place party before country yet delude themselves into thinking that they are doing what is best for the country. Today's politics is theater of the absurd where the inmates are running the asylum.
     
  11. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    What if they're negative principles?
     
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  12. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I follow. Can you give me an example of a negative principle and explain what separates a negative principle from a positive principle?
     
  13. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Look out for number one, screw everyone else.
     
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  14. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    If everyone in the group took that position then the group would fall apart. Group cohesion requires a measure of loyalty to the group. At a group level your scenario can and does apply in politics as politics is tribal where the tribe looks out for the tribe, often at the expense of other tribes.
     
  15. Right is the way

    Right is the way Well-Known Member

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    Did you feel this way when the Dims did not cross party line and impeach a president who lied under oath?
     
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  16. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    What principle is Romney serving? Orange man Bad? Surrender is better than victory? Fighting back is evil? Please tell me what principle is Romney serving?

    One more thing a principle that means you lose isn't a principle it's a self imposed handicap.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  17. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. At the time I was a Christian Conservative and to this day I still despise the Clinton's. What is different today is that I am now agnostic and a centrist independent with zero loyalty to the left or right. This allows me to assess the left and the right in a far more objective fashion than when I was a partisan conservative that turned a blind eye to the biases of the right while hyper-fixating upon the biases of the left. Today the biases of the right and left stick out like sore thumbs to me. Political affiliation tends to blind.
     
  18. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure, but I argue that his breaking with the Trumpers implies that he is guided by principles that he places above party loyalty. I argue that if Romney placed loyalty to party above his principles then he would be a good little sycophant like so many other Republicans are. Perhaps Romney, like I, understand that it is unethical for one who has a vested interest (Trump) in the outcome of an investigation to play a part in said investigation as to do so is to openly invite bias into the investigation. I hear team Trump criticize the left for their bias and rightly so, yet they give Trump who is obviously biased a pass when he pushes for an investigation into a political opponent that he may be running against in 2020. If Trump were a Democrat, Republicans would be singing a very different tune, as would the Democrats. The hypocrisy of the Republicans and Trump supporters is obvious to all but the Republicans and and Trump supporters. It is human nature for us to be oblivious to our own bias but easily see it in those we dislike.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  19. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Illogical, if you do not know what the principle is then you cannot judge his decision to be good or ill.
     
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm happy that Romeny is on the right side of history on this one. But I wouldn't call him "principled". He just knows he's more popular in Utah than Trump is. And, therefore, doesn't need him.

    I would called "principled" somebody who has something to lose and still assumes the possible consequences for the good of the country.
     
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  21. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    is that a negative or positive?

    It's not like I owe anybody else for anything, so it seems more neutral than anything else.
     
  22. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    What I tried to convey was an attitude of screwing others in order to get ahead.

    It's nuance.

    Back in the day, we still respected our elders.

    In my first real job, there was this old guy...

    He said something that stuck with me. He said: "Everyone has the right to earn a living. What you don't have is any right to steal a living."

    It's a lesson in personal ethics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  23. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I voted Republican in every presidential election from Kennedy through George H.W. Bush. It was like the party committed seppuku after that and went on a self destructive attack mode. I don't think there is a principled conservative anywhere within 500 miles from the continental limits of the United States. The only thing I can come to viv-a-vis the Republican Party is that it has been hijacked by people of low character and courage. We won the Cold War for god's sake! What happened?

    Now we have a supposed president that is totally incompetent and unfit to hold the office. Trump is a proven criminal (his college and foundation were fined a total of $27 million). He is being impeached for attempted extortion of a foreign power for his personal benefit. He has abused women, made fun of cripples, advocated violence against protesters, dissed a gold star family, and produced a tax plan that made his billionaire buddies immeasurably richer. But he has a base that no matter what will loooooove him. Next week I am hopeful the Dems ignite a fire under this moron that can be seen clearly in Moscow. How can one possibly compare this dirty little man to Dwight Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan?
     
  24. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    The thing about ethics is that it requires linguistic precision because that is where everything flows from. If your principle is "no screwing others to get ahead", that leaves screwing others just for the chucks you can get from it. we could reduce that to "no screwing others", but that's still far too imprecise because screwing somebody requires that somebody got a bum deal. What does that mean? Maybe I think he got a bum deal or he thinks he got a bum deal, but the deal was made. If the deal was made with no dishonesty involved, then I don't see the problem.

    For example, say I sell somebody a pound of sand for 100 dollars. He knows it's a pound of sand, I advertised it as such, but it's stupid to buy a pound of sand for a hundred bucks. Did I screw him? It was on sale along with a few pet rocks. He could have walked by and not bought it, but he did. Maybe he needed a pound of sand right then and there, or maybe he was high and thought it was magic sand, despite not being advertised as such?

    I'm not trying to be dense or hard, but ethics requires linguistic precision. It's not just feels and random old guys talking out of their arses.
     
  25. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I will never try to sell a pound of sand. I don't care how much anyone might demand it of me.
     

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