The problem of Capitalism

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by stan1990, Mar 13, 2019.

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Do you agree that the main problem of Capitalism is of moral nature?

Poll closed Apr 12, 2019.
  1. Yes

    33.3%
  2. No

    50.0%
  3. Maybe

    16.7%
  1. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    ive repeatedly bashed you over the head with reality. You do not have a right to anyone else’s property. That is reality. If you try and take it, you will be stopped. That is reality.

    I know it’s difficult for you, having had your ideology that you cling to so desperately completely demolished. But, you are a georgist so you have nobody to blame but yourself.

    comparing owning a human to owning land is retarded.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I've already refuted all that garbage before, and you just ignore that fact and post it again.

    But thanks for proving again how despicable and unworthy the opposition is.
     
  3. GChairman

    GChairman Member

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    I know Im late to this thread and maybe someone correctly posted that the Coffee that was destroyed in Brazil wasn't the result of capitalism, it was the result of government policies and intervention, did Nehru mentioned Brazil's coffee industry was subsidized by the state?

    Subsidies from the State isn't free market principles...

    Its like a parent telling their teen you are free to do what you want this weekend, except you have to bring the car back by 6 am as I have to work, and you cant drink, party and or have too many people over, is that freedom?

    2) Every industry from E 85 to meat to agricultural, all heavily regulated, and this is free markets how?
    Fast food, retail also has the lowest margins, they forgot to report that little information

    how about less burdensome regulations and meddling from the government, every panic, recession, depression and crises has the government hands all over it, every single crises

    Dont believe me pick one and lets discuss what was the real cause vs the reported cause.

    Intellects, writers, media all offer opinions and rarely do they offer actual facts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  4. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    You are perfectly aware that you’ve done no such thing

    always happy to expose georgist bullshit for what it is.
     
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    They can be. All government efforts in space so far are investments made by NASA.

    Some, however, are not very far away from private-investment exploration efforts. We shall see - there is no reason whatsoever that private-industry not continue and exploit whatever they find and wherever they find it. (Space is the next Gold Rush - to employ a euphemism.)

    So far, there is no common agreement signed covering, for instance, mining exploration on the moon or any other planet of the universe. But, one day, we'll need one ...

    PS: Think of it. No one can prevent a space-excursion to another planet and if agreeable to human habitation, someone starts up their own "country". There is no common agreement on space-discovery or exploitation. (We may well be one day in a race with the Chinese to get to Mars! ;^)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  6. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I and all other honest, informed, and intelligent readers (i.e., not you) know very well that I have.
    You are only exposing your own tragic moral and intellectual inadequacies. I am embarrassed for you.
     
  7. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    You are perfectly aware that you’ve done no such thing
    always happy to expose georgist bullshit for what it is.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    The massive flaw in this argument speaks for itself. NO ONE in said community is forced to participate. This sign was erected in the 20thC West - not ancient China, or 18thC aristocracy-controlled England.
     
  9. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That is just baldly false as a matter of objective physical fact: EVERYONE in the community is FORCED to participate because they have had their rights to liberty FORCIBLY STRIPPED from them by FORCE and FORCIBLY transferred to landowners as their private property. Landowners FORCE others to meet their extortion demands just to get PERMISSION to exercise their rights to liberty. Try to remember:

    "A man dying of thirst in the desert stumbles into an oasis fed by a natural spring. He stoops to drink from the pool nature provided when he hears a revolver being cocked behind his ear, and a quiet, menacing, sibilant voice intones, "Uh-uh. I know what you're thinkin'. 'Will he charge me six years' labor for a sip of water, or only five?' Well to tell the truth, in all this excitement, I haven't quite totaled up the rent myself. But bein' as it's 44 miles to the next water hole, which might as well be the other side of the world, and I'd as soon kick your sorry butt CLEAN OFF my land, you've got to ask yourself one question. 'Do I feel thirsty today?' Well, do ya, slave?"

    Are you really claiming the thirsty man is not FORCED to participate in Dirty Rahl's extortion racket?? REALLY???
    Right. And its facts are just as true anywhere land is privately owned. The landowner is always inherently a thief:

    THE BANDIT

    Suppose there is a bandit who lurks in the mountain pass between two countries. He robs the merchant caravans as they pass through, but is careful to take only as much as the merchants can afford to lose, so that they will keep using the pass and he will keep getting the loot.

    A thief, right?

    Now, suppose he has a license to charge tolls of those who use the pass, a license issued by the government of one of the countries -- or even both of them. The tolls are by coincidence equal to what he formerly took by force. How has the nature of his enterprise changed, simply through being made legal? He is still just a thief. He is still just demanding payment and not contributing anything in return. How can the mere existence of that piece of paper entitling him to rob the caravans alter the fact that what he is doing is in fact robbing them?

    But now suppose instead of a license to steal, he has a land title to the pass. He now charges the caravans the exact same amount in "rent" for using the pass, and has become quite a respectable gentleman. But how has the nature of his business really changed? It's all legal now, but he is still just taking money from those who use what nature provided for free, and contributing nothing whatever in return, just as he did when he was a lowly bandit. How is he any different now that he is a landowner?

    Is any other landowner charging rent for what nature provided for free any different?

    Do the merchants, by using the pass when they know the bandit is there, AGREE to be robbed? Or is the bandit/license holder/landowner just FORCIBLY ROBBING them?

    If there were two, or three, or 300, or 3 million passes, each with its own resident bandit, would the merchants' being at "liberty" to choose which bandit robs them make the bandits' racket a competitive industry in a free market?


    You know the answers to these questions. Of course you do. You just have to contrive some way of not knowing them, because you have already realized they prove your beliefs are false and evil.
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Describe exactly the mechanics and processes involved in forcing citizens of Western democracies to remain in a particular community, and forcing them to participate in the growth of that community. Please be clear, and give the details of the manner of policing and force used. Are they held in some manner? Are there 50 foot walls around these communities, surmounted by snipers watching for escapees?

    Now describe exactly the mechanics and processes involved in the forcible stripping of 'liberty'. How is that done? Prison? Cages? Gulags? Again, please give details.
     
  11. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    at no time have you ever had the right to property someone else owns. This is reality.
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I see. So, because no one is "forcing" the thirsty man to stay where the water he needs to survive is, his participation in Dirty Rahl's extortion scheme is somehow unforced and voluntary??? He can't complain, because he is "free" to head back out into the desert and take his chances? Friday is "free" to get his sorry brown @$$ off Crusoe's island and back in the water?? Is that your claim??

    The disingenuousness of such evil filth is sickening and disgraceful.

    Are you perhaps unaware that all the economic opportunities in ALL the communities are similarly owned by thieving landowners?? Do you think the thirsty man is somehow not being forcibly deprived of his liberty if there is another waterhole with another greedy, evil, landowning thief just over the hill? Is Crusoe pointing his musket at Friday and ordering him off the island somehow not force if there is another island with another musket-toting thief within swimming distance???
    It has nothing to do with "participating" in the "growth" of the community, and you know it. Everyone's liberty right to use the land, the liberty our remote ancestors exercised to survive for millions of years, has been FORCIBLY STRIPPED FROM THEM BY GOVERNMENT, AND MADE INTO THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF LANDOWNERS. Get that through your head.
    <yawn> The police and their methods are the same ones you are familiar with. If someone attempts to exercise their natural liberty right to use land that has been appropriated as someone's private property, the police will come along with their guns and FORCIBLY STOP them from exercising their right to liberty. You know this. Of course you do. You just have to contrive some way of not knowing it, because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.
    Walls are not needed. The police are there to ensure landowners' ownership of everyone else's rights to liberty is secure. You know this. Of course you do. You just have to contrive some way of not knowing it, because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.
    Before the land is appropriated as private property, all are at liberty to exercise their right to use it. After it is appropriated as private property, the landowner owns everyone else's liberty right to use it, and they must meet his extortion demand for permission to use what they were formerly at liberty to use. You know this. Of course you do. You just have to contrive some way of not knowing it, because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.
    Prison, etc., have often been used by landowners to exercise their ownership over everyone else's rights to liberty. Also murder, of course. English landowners murdered a million landless Irish in the space of just a few years purely by owning the land the Irish needed to survive. The truth is, you like the fact that the English landowners murdered millions of innocent people purely by exercising their "property rights." You like the fact that landowners still murder millions of innocent people every year purely by depriving them of their liberty right to support themselves using what nature provided for all. You like landowners murdering people by owning land. You like evil. You prefer evil to good.

    Simple.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I have always had, and always will have, an absolute right to any "property," owned by anyone, that consists of my right to liberty. I have already proved that to you multiple times by the examples of slavery, Crusoe's island, the earth's atmosphere, Dirty Rahl's waterhole, etc. They could be multiplied indefinitely. And you have never been able to refute a single one of those proofs.
     
  14. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    at no time have you ever had the right to property someone else owns. This is reality. Your georgist bullshit has been repeatedly proven to be bullshit, and contrary to reality. And you know this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) In yours and my respective nations, water is available EVERYWHERE. Your argument might have merit in places like North Korea, or Bangladesh .. but it is profoundly silly when discussing First World democracies. We are all free and able to reside wherever we like, without risk of starvation or thirst.

    2) Nonsense. I know quite a few very wealthy people who own no land, and just as many much poorer people who do own land. This is a FIRST WORLD DEMOCRACY, remember. We do as we see fit, and nothing but ourselves will prevent us achieving our goals.

    3) Of course we choose whether to participate in the economics of a community. I chose, long ago, to put as little money back into the system as possible, and I've done just that for over 20 years. I happily pay taxes, but all else is begrudging. Meantime, we're all free to opt out of participation in the system. The problem is that few will do so. Most people don't want to go without their First World luxuries (purchased goods and services). Do you? Are you willing to opt out of a system you despise? Or will you keep paying into it and therefore supporting and condoning it?

    4) Please explain how police will prevent people from leaving a community they don't want to participate in? Because THAT was the question asked. And land is not 'appropriated', it is purchased. Reality .. these past thousand or so years .. is that land is bought and sold. Make peace with that, it won't be changing any time soon.

    5) Yes of course .. I'm evil for sharing land with people less able to secure their own. Am I actually talking to an adult person? I feel as though you may be 14, no disrespect intended.

    6) English? Murderers? Okay, now I think I'm definitely talking to a teenager.

    7) Yes, it's most evil to want to live collectively. It's MUCH more loving to hog a property all for yourself, and declare family a 'burden'.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to think our pal is a kid. In which case we can sorta forgive him. He's probably white and middle class, and chock full of righteous indignation, as deeply privileged First Worlders often are.
     
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  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    A question mark isn't needed. Its neatly advertised by the right wingers that lap up your bobbins.

    I referred to how human nature demolishes an economic theory: the tragedy of the commons. Try again.

    But theory? There could be something to savour there in all of the bluster: rahl, despite needing neoclassical economics to pretend that he can demolish Georgism, doesn't know any. bringiton, needing to go beyond Georgism to chest-puff relevance, happily embeds neoclassical concepts within his argument. Round and round they go, delivering no political economic knock-out blow.
     
  18. james M

    james M Banned

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    so your idiotic theory is that land earns a higher ROI but only you know it and all other investors don't?????????? See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
     
  19. james M

    james M Banned

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    did someone say ownership of land and slaves was morally equivalent??? You seem lost?
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I never said only I know it. You just made that up, as usual. Lots of investors know it:

    "Buy it by the acre, sell it by the foot." John Jacob Astor

    "Landlords grow rich in their sleep." – John Stuart Mill

    "The most comfortable, but also the most unproductive way for a capitalist to increase his fortune, is to put all monies in sites and await that point in time when a society, hungering for land, has to pay his price” -- Andrew Carnegie

    "Buy land. They ain't makin' any more of it." -- Mark Twain

    "Don’t wait to buy real estate; buy real estate and wait." – T. Harv Eker

    "The best investment on earth is earth." – Louis Glickman

    "90% of all millionaires become so through owning real estate." – Andrew Carnegie

    "Everyone wants a piece of land. It’s the only sure investment. It can never depreciate like a car or washing machine. Land will only double its value in ten years." – Sam Shepard

    "Buying real estate is not only the best way. It is the quickest way and the safest way, but the only way to become wealthy."
    – Marshall Field

    "Real estate is an imperishable asset, ever increasing in value. It is the most solid security that human ingenuity had devised. It is the basis of all security and about the only indestructible security." – Russell Sage

    So I guess maybe you are about the only one who doesn't know it....
    Why do you choose to disgrace yourself?
     
  21. james M

    james M Banned

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    If everyone knows real estate has a very high ROI then it would no longer have a very high ROI. 1+1=2. See why we say liberalism is based in pure and perfect ignorance?
     
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Because being (more or less) democratically accountable, our governments rescue us from enslavement by landowners.
    But that's just objectively and indisputably false. We are only not at risk of starvation if we live close to a community with access to food supplies, and to do that, we have to pay a landowner for permission. We are therefore not free in the least. Landowners and other privilege holders own our rights to liberty. If government did not intervene massively in the economy to rescue us from enslavement by landowners, they would effectively own us as slaves.
    No, you most certainly do not. They may own it mainly through owning shares of companies that own land, but they definitely own it.
    No, you do not. Poor people do not own real estate. Duh.
    Again, that is just objectively and indisputably false. To access economic opportunity, we have to pay a landowner full market value just for PERMISSION to access it. We also have to pay taxes which are also then given to landowners in return for nothing.
    Sure. Just as Friday is "free" to get back in the water....
    No, that is most certainly and indisputably NOT the problem. The PROBLEM is that they are forcibly stripped of their rights to liberty, and thus their bargaining power, so that they will suffer deprivation no matter what they choose. Duh.
    Of course not. Why should I? I am willing to support myself and my family by producing more value than we consume and exchanging it consensually with others in the community. Why wouldn't I? I'm just not happy about also having to support the government, and having to pay rich, greedy, privileged PARASITES for PERMISSION to do so.
    <yawn> Do you think it would have been responsive to the abolitionists to ask them if they were willing to "opt out" of slavery?
    Google "force majeur" and start reading.
    <sigh> Who wants to leave the community? Human beings are social animals. We can't thrive outside the community. I just don't want to pay rich, greedy, privileged parasites full market value for PERMISSION to be in the community. Similarly, Crusoe doesn't stop Friday from getting back in the water and "leaving the community" he "doesn't want to participate in." It is precisely by pointing his musket at Friday and giving him the choice of either being a slave or getting back in the water that makes Crusoe's status as owner of the island evil. Hello?
    And it was disingenuous and irrelevant.
    <sigh> From whom? All private land titles are founded on an initial act of appropriation because all land started out unowned. You KNOW this.
    That is exactly the "logic" slave owners tried against the abolitionists. Why can't you ever remember that all your disingenuous nonsense has already been refuted by the fact that it would -- and was used to -- justify slavery?
    Evil because you condone and try to rationalize and justify murder.
    Do think it is a mark of adulthood to believe that millions of innocent can be killed without resort to evil?
    The English owners of Irish land murdered millions of landless Irish by forcibly depriving them of their natural liberty right to sustain themselves using what nature provided. Yes, I said MURDERED. And you are now trying to rationalize and justify those murders, that Holocaust, by dismissing outrage at it as a mark of immaturity.

    Despicable.
    You are just makin' $#!+ up again. No surprises there.
     
  23. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    <sigh> You are aware of the fact that I didn't say everyone. You, for example, don't know it.
    A good man always knows his limitations....
    You are the very last person in the world who can accuse others of ignorance.
     
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I have always had, and always will have, an absolute right to any "property," owned by anyone, that consists of my right to liberty. I have already proved that to you multiple times by the examples of slavery, Crusoe's island, the earth's atmosphere, Dirty Rahl's waterhole, etc. They could be multiplied indefinitely. And you have never been able to refute a single one of those proofs. Nor will you ever be doing so.
    No, it's just a false claim you repeat without factual or logical evidence.
    I know it hasn't. Readers know it hasn't. And so do you.

    You are just disgracing yourself, and proving the unworthiness of those who hate the idea of justice in land tenure and taxation.
     
  25. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Me. And I have proved it repeatedly.
     

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