The problem of religion

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by mihapiha, Sep 25, 2015.

  1. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Hello everyone,


    I felt the need to discuss the future of religious institutions in general. In order to do so I will give a historic introduction into the evolution of religions (from a religious studies point of view) as well as try to address some of the issues primarily Christian religions are facing at the moment. Since I cannot be sure what kind of knowledge people have about this, I will try to simplify the history and evolution of certain aspects of religion here.



    history:


    In the early stone age, people didn't settle yet in houses, and because of that, they didn't farm yet. As soon as people started to do basic farming the desire and need for fertility of the farm land grew. Some of the oldest Gods we could find are therefore female, because we associate female with fertility. Some of these beliefs remain to this day. In pretty much all languages you have a "mother nature" and a female "goddess of love". So these characteristics are to this day connected with the female gender. The male gender would represent power, aggression, etc. Therefore as societies moved away from living just as mere farmers who primarily needed to protect their land from animals into societies who would have regular conflicts against other peoples, we can find more and more male Gods, who would represent the then associated fields. Gods of power, gods of war, etc. tended to be male, and as these aspects of society grew in importance, the number of male gods started to outnumber female goddesses.

    The sheer number of Gods would increase dramatically as societies evolved and had more professions among other things. Most cities tended to have a city god who was in charge of protecting the inhabitants. Subsequently, this was also a weakness of such a system. If the city god's temple was destroyed the inhabitants believed that their god left them and would stop resisting a siege for example. Another way the people would feel like their god left them, is for example if another people build a bigger and more beautiful temple for the same god. Again, the reasoning was that the god would leave the people and so they just let the conquerers rule over them. For this reason the city god of ancient Rome was kept secret. The leaders understood this weakness because they themselves abused it by conquering cities, and felt that keeping the city god of Rome a secret would ultimately guarantee that Rome would never be conquered.

    The monotheistic Jewish belief was revolutionary at the time, and had enormous advantages over previous systems. The Jewish God wouldn't change sides if you build him a bigger temple, the people woldn't just give up if you destroyed their temple, and to make things worse: They wouldn't accept other Gods into their belief. In other words, it had become much more difficult to conquer a group of people and maintain the power over them. Christianity improved on these basic principals even more. People could be converted to be Christian, hence the religion would spread at a much faster paste than the Jewish religion. On top of this, it was even an obligation to convert other to Christianity and something positive within the belief system. Another advantage of the Christian faith at that time was, that it gave women a clear and important role within the religion. A nun is to this day a respected figure within Christian communities.

    In English the expression "dark ages" is more prevalent than in German. A term I personally feel undermines the middle ages. In the middle ages, Europe was primarily Christian, and converting peoples by force. However the deep faith into Christian teachings also made the religion a central point of the society. Cities outside of Italy were quite small. A sizable city would have over 10,000 inhabitants, just to give you an idea. However, the people's belief would create the stability in those societies. The justice system worked based on swearing. People's belief was so deep that they didn't dare to swear unless they told the truth. This fundamental belief served as evidence. The Christian institutions would also be responsible for education, government and health care for a region. Pretty much all essential services were provided by christian institutions, who governed people locally. Monks would spend years copying books and because paper hadn't been invented by that time, very expensive vellum-bound texts were stored. Because books were so expensive, the education (even higher education) focused on studying by heart, which actually made it possible that even very poor inhabitants with no income, got the opportunity to get a higher education.

    With the start of modern history scientific discoveries forced religion to give up their monopoly on knowledge. Not only that, but science even forced religion to admit to its mistakes. Changes within the traditional belief-system where therefore inevitable. Religious institutions had to give up their monopoly over education, justice as well as other areas of expertise which previously remained unchallenged. By the 20th century Christian institutions lost ground on more and more areas previously considered monopolies which were not to be challenged. The most recent examples might be the debate about marriage.

    With this progression, the amount of people considering themselves agnostic or atheist keeps rising while the overall percentage numbers of Christians is decreasing. This is true for pretty much every industrialized country. In the country Slovenia where I was born 97% of the inhabitants prior to WW2 considered themselves Catholics with an additional 2.5% Lutheran. In the year 2002, around 10% of Slovenes declared themselves as atheists, another 10% professed no specific denomination, and around 16% decided not to answer the question about their religious affiliation. According to the Eurobarometer Poll 2010, 32% of Slovenian citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 36% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 26% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".


    Problems of the trend:

    As a result of this, there is obviously a tremendous lack of money for Christian institutions, which keeps naturally falling. As an atheist myself, I feel quite ambivalent about this. I don't want the huge history and heritage to be underfunded. While I may not share the beliefs, I still see the Christian institutions as a part of my own heritage. These beautiful churches are naturally at the most important locations of any city. I have to worry that in the decades to come, the underfunding may get worse, and some of these old buildings may get destroyed for the sake of a big mall or car park. But prior to that, the huge archives which were kept for centuries and books which were copied by monks centuries ago are among the first things to get ignored. While religious institutions have managed to maintain books over many centuries our society changes at the moment could cause these unique books to get forgotten and deteriorate.

    I know that many theists might believe that atheists might not care about churches, temples or mosques, I would like to point out that these are still culturally important sites. Although I might not believe in an ancient Egyptian religion, it doesn't mean I approve of the destruction of the Pyramids, and just because I don't believe in what my parents believe in, I wouldn't want the beautiful churches destroyed.

    The catholic church has incredible wealth, which it cannot sell. How can you put a price on a 900 year old cathedral? So the wealth the institution has, really doesn't do the institution any favors, especially because it costs a fortune to maintain.

    Longterm, I personally hope that the Vatican will sell some essential cathedrals under the precondition that the cathedrals must be maintained as museums and not to be altered, to some countries. I feel it is in the public interest that these cathedrals are maintained and not destroyed.


    Questions:


    What do you think is the future of the religious institutions mentioned here?

    And if the trend continues and percentage numbers of atheists and agnostics keep rising, how can we prevent the huge cultural heritage not to get destroyed?
     
  2. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    IMO, churches should not be idiolozed for their structures. They are only for promoting salvation. IMO, catholic cathedrals border on idol worshipping institutions.
     
  3. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The majority of those buildings and structures tires are money makers because of tourism so they are not going anywhere. As far as religion fading away well that simply isn't happening. You would have to go all the way back to the Age of Enlightenment to see such a major shift. 70.6 of Americans still identify themselves as Christians.
     
  4. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Which is more than a century ago?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I don't fully understand your point. Do you mean that because they promote salvation they are not in danger of being underfunded?
     
  5. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Well some such buildings are always going to be around, the Parthenon in Athens is still there and I would argue the historical places will always be there unless something happens like the Vatican. However religion as it is will slowly die as institutions for other forms, with Atheism rising as more people are educated and our species break down more of the secrets of science. The best way to get people to not believe in a religion is to read the religious books and apply a critical mind.
     
  6. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you saying only an idiot can be religious?

    If so, you are discounting some of the greatest critical thinking minds that the human species has ever seen.
     
  7. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Yeah,...
    But 2/3rds of all the 1.2 million annual abortions are by never married girls, under age 22, who check off "Christian" for religion.
    Do you believe them, about "religion?"
     
  8. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    There was NO Italy. It was a collection of city states.
     
  9. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe the christian religion is here to stay. It obviously will not be exactly as it has been in the past, because just like any other institution the events of history will change it. The cultural heritage it contains will be carried on both by religious and secular historians.

    I am not able to predict the future, so who knows what will happen next?
     
  10. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    The Bible tells us what is already happening.

    The Muslims (Magog) have surrounded Israel for now, while they fight one another and the Russians.
    Islam is now in the social stage of the Pale Horse.

    That is stage number one:

    Rev. 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal (of the Scriptures), I heard the voice of the fourth beast ([Ez 1:10], i.e.; sociologically speaking, the academic, educated, Integrated Group) say, Come and see.

    Rev. 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse (OF FOREIGN COLONIALISM, FOLLOWED BY INDEPENDENCE AND STAGNATION): and his name, (ISLAMIC SHARIA), that sat on him, (BACKWARDNESS), was Death, (THEOCRATIC OPPRESSION), and Hell (IN WORLD WIDE TERRORISM) followed with him, (FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM).
    And (RELIGIOUS) power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, (the Western World), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the (FOUR) beasts (i.e.; the chariots of Social Force, the four Social Groups) of the earth.

    PALE HORSE:
    VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI warned Sunday that terrorism, nihilism and "fanatic fundamentalism" threatened world peace, and he called on individuals, governments and institutions to work together to combat them
    He said individuals, international organizations and world powers must take responsibility for promoting justice, solidarity and peace.

    /////
     
  11. Independant thinker

    Independant thinker Banned

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    A lot of goverment money goes to contracting services that are church run. Homeless services, unemployment services... these are just two areas the church has monopolized government contracts. It's a few different churches in on the act but it's still the same.

    The problem is, the only alternative is giving the contracts to the Thought Police. And that's just an even worse religion.
     
  12. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm saying that churches are for promoting salvation/godly principles and not to be shrines of religion.
     
  13. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    They will all be measured in regard to how much Charity they have done, compared to the incomes they have each year:[Matt 25:31]
     
  14. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I didn't mean the country as a national state but the region. Primarily in the region of today's Italy there were cities surpassing the traditional 10,000 inhabitant mark. But I didn't expect to create confusion there...
     
  15. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    This is true. But because of that service the church has provided now for so long, their archives are immense and underfunded. If you ever go to a monastery archive in Europe (I have to assume that monastery archives in the US don't extent over more than 2 or 3 centuries), you may see what I mean. It is horrible. They have documents which extent over 1000 years for the people who lived under their leadership. And as I stated, most essential services were provided by the church and documented by the church as well. Which means, if the church archive or monastery archive has no money the documents will get destroyed by deterioration. Remember, those institutions are not public but private. So they still have to collect money to protect the cultural heritage. And the archive doesn't belong to the priests, but to the church or the monastery. Here in Austria the situation isn't that bad yet, because we pay a church tax which helps those institutions. However in Slovenia, the situation is unfortunately different and obviously worse.
     
  16. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What do archives have to do with current church business?
     
  17. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Religion in general cannot be saved in the light of Human intellectual growth, nor should it be. Over time our species will grow beyond the need for artificial mental support and accept the realities we must deal with. At this point in our societal evolution we are watching the transition from infancy to toddler and bumping our heads on the table...long from now we will be able to steadily walk into the next room and enjoy the new stuff we see. Right now though...we still need to crawl sometimes.
     
  18. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    The archives are part of the institution, and probably among the first things to get ignored if funding is low.

    Reading through my opening post one more time I realize now that I may have not pointed out my concerns well enough. Cathedrals and other church institutions may be in danger in a few decades if the trend continues, but the archives, records and books are already in danger.

    I think the situation may be different in the US and Canada because the heritage in those respects isn't that old and the collected archival information is a small fraction of the institution. In Europe the concerns of mine are quite legit. The last monastery archive I visited was 1200 years old. The records were kept in the cellar, which is quite humid because of the old construct. That means that the records deteriorate quicker. The archive was also terribly organized. The padre in charge is working on organizing, but one man for a 1200 year old archive just isn't enough...

    - - - Updated - - -


    in other words, you think we need not to save the nearly 2000 year old records and buildings?
     
  19. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    The long term prognosis for the Christian church as we know it, in Western Europe and North America is very poor, but it continues to do well in Africa, Asia and South America. I think there will need to be a major retooling of the fundamental premise and structure for a post industrial world. The basic institution is simply too slow to respond to social change to stay relevant.

    However paradoxically, it is still true that no major social, economic or political reform movement in the west, has got past first base without the a serious and deep progressive Christian institutional presence to offer organizational, and economic support as well as a viable alternative to the established propaganda machines. From the abolitionist, worker labor movement, to the black civil rights movement, to socialist and progressive economic movements, to countless peace, anti-nuclear or human rights movements in every country, Christian theologians, clerics, and churches/ denominations have played a pivotal role and making change happen. We can't win reform without some pulpits, and priests on our side if civil authority is not.
    That truth is good to keep in mind, before progressives decide to tolerate some grand schism among atheists and theists in its membership. You can't scream death to organized religion, insult its adherants as naïve fools and then seek the use its houses of worship, its orators, its money, and its passion for your reform movement's most pressing need week. Its the Christian left that has the moral authority and precedent to offer sanctuary, aide and a very impressive and intimate entry into the lives of people, in cities, capitals and countryside in most nations with a despot who hates you and an army searching every neighborhood to arrest you.

    'Bible thumpers' are called something very different, if they are men and women who see political, social and economic injustice issues the same way you do.
     
  20. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why would you attribute your own words to me?

    I said absolutely nothing in any way resembling what you just typed. I will however counter your dishonesty with my actual words.

    None of the religious books, words, artifacts or building will be destroyed by anything but time...or other religious folk who do so out of hatred based on the one THEY follow, As a species we will attempt to preserve our history as we always do.

    I will state that your observed attitude and defensive commentary is an example of the desperation seen in the last throws of life.
     
  21. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I seem to miss the point. What does that have to do with the underfunding of church archives and reduction of funds for the church in industrialized countries?
     
  22. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    The question posed in the OP was actually broader than that. "What do you think is the future of the religious institutions mentioned here?

    And if the trend continues and percentage numbers of atheists and agnostics keep rising, how can we prevent the huge cultural heritage not to get destroyed?"

    though it is true that I took it in a different direction, I did not think it was so far as to constitute derailment. I apologize if you as the OP author, think it might distract more than its value. I could post it as a separate thread. Its up to you. Just let me know. I believe in giving the creator of a thread due deference o its scope. it was your idea and your framework
     
  23. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    English is a second language to me, but correct me if I'm wrong here....

    Doesn't this mean, that in order to progress as a species intellectually, religion cannot and should not be saved?
    Therefore my question was whether the institution and its vast heritage shouldn't be protected either, since this seems to be the point you made here. The entire topic is not about the content of religion, but about the heritage it has. I only pointed out the history and the process in order to explain my concerns better. Neither of my questions had anything to do with the content of any religion, but with the trend of the underfunding of the institutions.

    For some reason I feel like you were offended by this question. I don't understand why, especially as I brought it back to the original question


    That was the point of this topic, wasn't it? The destruction of heritage based on underfunding of private institutions (in this case Christian institution due to the rise of agnostics and atheists). The Christian institutions happen to have a vast collection in private hands. And like any private institution funding problems will pose the question on what to ignore first. Cathedrals probably will face funding problems last, however some archives in monasteries are facing funding problems already.

    As you stated time will destroy books, words, artifacts and buildings, but how to protect these if they are in private hands and underfunded. The country would have to confiscate archival documents to protect them. The preservation of these books and documents is the point of this topic, and the sole question how it can be done in the best possible way.

    Hence my questions again:

     
  24. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My commentary was not a recommendation as much as a statement of inevitability. Personally I do not much care one way or another about religion, except when it causes societal damage and death, or when someone forces me to think on it by knocking on my damn door. Admittedly I will not shed a tear when time fades the whole concept from humanity...but I am a patient realist and will be long dead by the time we grow out of it.
     
  25. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I fail to see the importance of archives. I fail to see the importance of elaborate cathedrals. You are concerned with religion, I am not.
     

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