The Right to Die

Discussion in 'Human Rights' started by Buried & Me, Jul 4, 2011.

  1. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the etymology of language is one aspect, and only one, of determining the meaning of a word. Usage is probably the most important aspect. The dictionary also helps. Try it.

    As to your example, yes, this is involuntary euthanasia. This is the meaning of the word. That doesn't mean anyone agrees with it. Who is saying involuntary euthanasia is justifiable? Name them. Not only would your example be involuntary euthansia, but this would also be murder.

    The meaning of words is important. The rambling drivel you post to abuse "liberals" is a master class in how to abuse and misrepresent the meaning of words to slander and abuse.
     
  2. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Involuntary euthanasia has a clear usage that is understood by everyone. Voluntary euthanasia would not necessarily be the same as assisted suicide. My father was a doctor. He was quite capable of euthanizing himself. This would then be voluntary euthanasia and an unassisted suicide. He died in a hospice because he firmly believed that euthanasia (any euthanasia, voluntary or not) was not only wrong, but that the premise that cancer patients had a poor quality of life was also a false one. He was a *******, as you conservative gentlemen so elegantly put it.

    Now what was all that drivel about abortion, and libspeak and Hitler? Are you now going to withdraw all this vitriolic abusive nonsense against liberals? You appear here to be a supporter of assisted suicide, or voluntary euthanasia. That is a liberal position. I am a liberal and I don't agree with assisted suicide. I don't support this liberal position.

    That is how the world is. Conservatives can take liberal positions on some things, that would horrify other conservatives, and liberals can take conservative positions on things which would invite the criticism of other liberals. Your embarassment at finding yourself agreeing with the liberal position that assisted suicide is OK, seems to have prompted a tirade of abuse to misrepresent liberals as supporters of involuntary euthanasia, as a way of falsely disassociating your idea from theirs.
     
  3. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    *shrug* No law has ever been denied that right. At most societies laws just effect the schedule for it's exercise.​
     
  4. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    If someone wants to kill themselves, there's nothing I can do to stop them.

    Euthanasia is another matter entirely and should be allowed. It's cruel to keep people in suffering.
     
  5. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    If you think you are out of options, financial, social, or other, should you have the right to ask for your execution? (In Nazi Germany, an attempt to commit suicide was an automatic death penalty, so they did have this option as a right.)
     
  6. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    Maybe call a doctor? Get them psychiatric care?
     
  7. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    No, because what if they don't have insurance?
     
  8. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Anyone who has to do with the Samaritans knows this is a complex and difficult question and varies hugely from individual to individual. Many people talk about suicide because they have personal problems with which they need help; others are uncertain and need to talk; others have mood-swings; some feel they are a burden on others and ought to get off their backs; some find life unbearable but find the business of dying difficult - and so on. A whole web of human relationships is usually involved - as when people kill themselves to 'punish' others over disagreements. A friend of mind went to Switzerland when he got cancer - he was a very strong and mature personality - but I think the euthanasia thing wants care with most. There are problems when you make things official, I think. The doctor helped my grandfather on his way, and everyone understood and kept quiet, but think of the questions about how completely we are in control of our own lives - a mother with young children, one of a couple, and so on. I think it a subject on which to make haste very slowly myself.
     
  9. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think everybody should have the right to choose. I'm just not certain if there should be a criteria. I think where you get snagged is when you try to differentiate between the people who are rational and of sound mind with the ones who may indeed have some mental issues. How do you tell the difference?

    I would be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to people with terminal illnesses or in extreme long term pain.
     
  10. DavieDanie630

    DavieDanie630 New Member

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    Then the lines get further muddied when you're talking about people who have neither the physical or mental capabilities, have some physical capabilities but lack mental, are lacking physical but have some mental - it's difficult to see someone suffer, and in some cases it may be hard to tell if there is suffering - it's definitely an issue that needs more depth of differentiation.
     
  11. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Self destruction is indicative of mental illness. Folks who cut themselves, continually abuse drugs, bang their head against hard objects, or attempt suicide are generally considered mentally ill and not of sound mind.​
     
  12. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    There's a difference between using drugs, cutting yourself, or causing bodily injury and making the rational decision that you want to end your life. It's only classified as a mental illness so that the authorities can put you away in a mental institution, not because it actually is in all cases. I think there's a certain amount of projection when it comes to us believing everyone naturally wants to be alive and anyone who doesn't must be ill.
     
  13. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is an interesting opinion.​
     
  14. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    Suicide happens in nature every day, at a very high rate, in all branches of the animal kingdom. The difference is that the natural suicide is by proxy. An animal that is not high enough at its mood/spirit will be more susceptible to deceases and will die earlier. Also, there is stress induced suicide in the animal kingdom too, most notably with the bug called scorpion.

    But for humans, civilization has eliminated the opportunity of suicide by falling to deceases. Civilization has also increased stress, but still opposes the stress related suicide too.

    Civilization may probably not be the work of God ... .
     
  15. DeskFan

    DeskFan New Member

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    I do believe in the general principal, but there are too many emotional people who would act irrationally and want to commit suicide just because their girlfriend broke up with them or they broke a nail. There should be some process you would have to go through in order to commit suicide, maybe some counseling, psych. evaluations, etc.
     
  16. Ideologue

    Ideologue New Member

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    I think that an important aspect of this question is, what does legal suicide show about the society that allows it? The cause of a person committing suicide (apart from mental illness and complete irrationality) is usually that he is isolated from the community at large. I think that it is important to tackle the source of isolation and alienation, so that suicide (if legally allowed) occurs rarely.
     
    Iolo and (deleted member) like this.
  17. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    Maybe in your country but not in the U.S. Here, we have other problems getting people help.

    I investigated a lot of suicides and most did not involve any serious mental illness. Temporary depression. For women, age seemed to be significant. For some, it was closer to stupid than crazy. Some suicdes are attacks. Their notes say things like, "Now you'll be sorry..." or "I'll laugh when you read this...." Sure those are irratinal statements but they show a clear intent to hurt. My saddest, personally, was amn who was decent, conscientious. He was about sixty. He had a sharp pain in his side and bought a "diagnorse yourself" book. He diagnosed himself with pancreatic cancer and didn't want to be a burden on his family. His suicide was extremely considerate of family and everyone else. The autopsy disclosed a kidney stone.

    Oh, and a high percentage of the suicdes involved people who were drunk. That's no surprise.

    I always have the option of killing msyelf. I can't imagine trasnferring that burden to someone else unless I was totally paralyzed and someone else was feeding me. But, that's just me.
     
  18. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    Not even close, Heroclitus. But those who desire to murder without penalty are on a roll.
     
  19. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    That's a fantasy. Do you have evidence that animals have moods or that if they do being in a bad mood will cause them to die?

    I assume that with the scorpion story you're referring to the myth that they sting themselves to death. Yes, they're sensitive to heat and have seizures when they get too hot but they have some immunity to the poison and don't "sting themselves to death".
     
  20. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    If you say so...yawn....remind me next time not to bother....
     
  21. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    What if we are trained to take people's suicides too seriously? My classmate dumped his GF and then she killed herself and blamed him for it. It was absolutely impossible to tell him to snap out of it and stop taking it so seriously/personally, no matter how I tried to play it down for him.

    Yes, there is plenty of evidence that animals have moods. Of course this is different from species to species, but we can make very similar behavioral observations to those in humans. Adding that the animal kingdom is in constant competition for the most basics such as food and shelter, even a tiny slow-down for a low mood can cause a slip-behind and eventual death ... "suicide" by proxy.

    For example, the monkey that has lost his fight to another for a mate, is observed to be in lower mood. More recent biochemical observations indicate negative hormonal changes in the loser too. All this takes time away from the animal's normal push for survival.
     

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