The Vietnam War – 42 years Ago

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by longknife, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You could say the Case-Chase Amendment was the death warrant for the RVN.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This started as a French colonial problem. Colonialism doesn't work.

    The harder we tried to make it work (under our own terms, of course) the more it strengthened and radicalized the opposition.

    Vietnam declared independence in 1945. Was Ho Chi Minh too oriented to the Chinese? This is what he said when he was forced to choose between the French and the Chinese who had invaded from the north:

    "The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go. As for me, I prefer to sniff French (*)(*)(*)(*) for five years than to eat Chinese (*)(*)(*)(*) for the rest of my life." — Ho Chi Minh, 1946

    By the time we owned Vietnam there really was zero chance we were going to solve the problem by picking a leader for them (which pretty much never works), help with the needed change (which we did not want), and make the people happy while ridding the country of opposition which had grown in strength over years.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we could bomb Vietnam forever. Bombing isn't a solution.

    I think this is one of the fundamental misunderstandings, and not just of that particular conflict.
     
  4. Cordelier

    Cordelier New Member

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    Case-Church was just Congress saying enough is enough.... the death warrant was signed by the South Vietnamese themselves. The US pumped billions of dollars into the effort in South Vietnam. It spent the blood of thousands of the flower of it's youth. It gave South Vietnam the world's sixth-largest air force. If, despite all of this, they couldn't stand on their own two feet, what else can you do? Enough was enough.
     
  5. Cordelier

    Cordelier New Member

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    I'm not saying pick their leader of them - by definition, that will never get you anything but a puppet. What I'm saying is to identify the leader who has the ability to get the job done - and that includes the strength of character to say "no" to the US - and then throw your support behind that leader. Like I said before, you needed to have a South Vietnamese version of what Park Chung-hee was to South Korea. He's the prototype I'd look to emulate. Unless until South Vietnam could find their President Park, then they could never succeed. The problem was that they never did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think that's probably the most suitable epitaph to Vietnam that anyone is ever going to come up with.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    WillReadmore, nice user name.

    Here's some good reading.

    >''I would say the major mistake I made as President was one - this will surprise you - was not doing early in 1969 what I did on May 3 of 1972 and on Dec. 15 of 1972, and that was to bomb and mine North Vietnam,'' he said.

    ''I wanted to do it,'' he said. ''I talked to Henry Kissinger about it, but we were stuck with the bombing halt that we had inherited from the Johnson Administration, with Paris peace talks. I knew that, just like the cease-fire talks down here in Nicaragua, I didn't trust them at all. And they proved to be, of course, phony.''

    ''But if we had done that then, I think we would have ended the war in Vietnam in 1969 rather than in 1973. That was my biggest mistake as President.'' Regrets Over Watergate..."<
    http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/11/us/nixon-s-big-regret-bombing-delay.html

    https://books.google.com/books?id=V...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false

    https://books.google.com/books?id=0...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false


    https://books.google.com/books?id=T...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false

    https://books.google.com/books?id=b...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false

    https://books.google.com/books?id=O...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false

    https://books.google.com/books?id=0...age&q=nixons biggest mistake, bombing&f=false

    http://www.app.com/story/opinion/co...nixons-achievements-stand-test-time/13640861/

     
  7. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Regardless of what all is being said, as a 10 year vet of Southeast Asia, 1967-76 I wake up some mornings knowing it didn't have to end the way it did. On other mornings that the ending was inevitable.

    The only think I know for sure is I left a lot of friends behind there and have no way of knowing what happened to them. Such is life.
     
  8. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Scuttlebutt was, that by March of 1975 ARVAN soldiers were down to three 5.56 rounds per day per soldier thanks to Congress.

    When Saigon fell, and the murder of South Vietnamese that followed and remember the "boat people" and what happened in Cambodia and not even a peep from those in Congress who were responsible for what followed.

     
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think Esienhower ever tried to put a legitimate, uncorrupt government in place in the RVN but I'm sure he would have liked to have seen it happen. But the next three Presidents, JFK, LBJ and RMN did. All failed.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you are saying to not pick their leader, but then you specify what you want want to pick.

    Vietnam's choice was Ho Chi Minh. He was anti China. He was western educated and accepted the west over China. He worked in favor of the west during WWII. He was a strong leader, having the power and legitimacy for his declaration of Vietnam's independence.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We had not defeated the will of the people of Vietnam, nor did we have a solution for them.

    While we may well have majorly reduced their weapons, it would have taken perpetual war to keep it that way.

    War is not a solution. Period. Solutions come by other means, and we had nothing to offer in that.

    The slaughter that followed the war was a response to the decades of hell wrecked upon that country as much as anything else. And, that's not atypical. After the conquest of Iraq Sunnis were disenfranchised and slaughtered by their own government even while we had over 160,000 troops in the country.
     
  12. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But if G.W. Bush would have went by the Weinberg Doctrine and the Powell Doctrine and hadn't gone into Iraq with Clinton's military, there would have been 400,000 American boots on the ground and there would have been no second war in Iraq, the Iraq insurrection.

    The Weinberger Doctrine and the Powell Doctrine which is just a paste and cut of the Weiberger Doctrine but Gen. Powell added a few more requirements were rules to be used so the mistakes made during the Vietnam War weren't never repeated.

    It was Congress, both Republican and Democrats who allowed Bush to go to war without following the Weinberger and Powell Doctrines.

    Now Bush actually fired two Army Generals who adviced Bush not to go to war with Clinton's military, that the mission of regime change could be accomplished with Clinton's military with only 200,000 boots on the ground but a minimum of 400,000 troops would be required to occupy Iraq after the mission was accomplished.

    Both generals were fired from their commands by Bush and transferred to new commands. Unlike Obama who purges the officers corps of those who aren't yes men, Bush just moved the generals to new commands and one actually was promoted with an extra star to wear on his collar. You don't force warriors out of the military for political reasons, unless you're a community organizer. :smile:

    G.W. Bush said I don't have Reagan's military like my daddy did during the first Gulf war (Desert Storm)

    SECDEF Rumsfeld said you go to war with the military you have.

    Rumsfeld is correct and that's why we should always have a strong military even during peace time. But Rumsfeld from day one in 2001 decided instead of rebuilding the U.S. military after the over downsizing of the military during the Clinton administration decided on a small and leaner military.

    Small leaner armies can win battles but not wars.

    Not saying we need a large standing active duty Army during peace time. A smaller standing army of a highly professional officers corps and SNCO corps and the enlisted ranks being made up of soldiers who are highly trained and equipped who serve six, eight or twelve years and then move back into the civilian world. But also a large Army reserve and National Guard made up of heavy combat brigades that can be called up and go to war and fight when needed. (Total war scenario)

    (The Case-Church Act and the War Powers Act have already been mentioned above but during the same time the liberal Democrats came up with the ":total force" doctrine thinking that the Guard and reserves would act like liberals if activated and refuse to go to war. The "total force" policy is that the U.S. Army can't deploy even a brigade into combat without calling up reservist and the Guard.
    Guess what ? reservist and the Guard will pick up their weapons and fight when they get that phone call to report to their armories. But the U.S. Army should be able to deploy at least three combat divisions (nine brigades) without having to call up the Guard and reserves.

    America as a maritime nation needs a large and powerful navy and today we don't.

    The Marine Corps needs to go back to it's roots, light naval infantry. The Corps just got to heavy after the Vietnam War. Under the National Security Act of 1947 the law says that the Corps must have three amphibious divisions which means nine rifle regiments. The 9th Marines are missing and that's in violation of the law. The 9th Marine Regiment needs to be reactivated.

    What do you think would have been the outcome if there was a Weinberger and Powell Doctrine in 1965 and LBJ would have put 500,000 troops with in a few months in 1965 and would have done what Nixon did in 73, bomb the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of North Vietnam and mined it's harbors ? A total war scenario.

    One of LBJ's ROE forced upon the Air Force and the Navy that I got a kick out of was that our pilots weren't allowed to engage or destroy any enemy MIG's if their landing gear were down. Which means you couldn't destroy any MIG's that were on the tarmac or taking off to engage American aircraft.

    As LBJ made very clear to the Air Force and the Navy, if they wanted to drop a bomb on a NVA (*)(*)(*)(*)ter (outhouse) they would have to get permission from the LBJ White House.
     
  13. JHoneyman

    JHoneyman New Member Past Donor

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    Getting back to the main subject...Gen. Westmorland didn't give a *rap about arming or training the ARVN troops during his four year tenure in the RVN. I saw this in my tour ('69 -70) where ARVN troops were equipped with WWII or Korean era weapons. I actually 'bought one'...a M1A1 .30 cal. carbine from an ARVN soldier (folding stock). Cost me $50. I wanted it for the upcoming invasion of Cambodia.

    We'll recall that the VC and NVA troops were much better equipped with AK-47 weapons...apparently lost on Westmorland. This disgraceful 'oversight' by the U.S. did not improve moral in the ARVN forces and this is only one example.

    I hated working with ARVN troops as they'd steal everything that wasn't tied down. Again...because they were so poorly equipped by the U.S., and this was fairly late in the war.
     
  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was in-country from 69-70, Gen. Abrams was in charge. Westmoreland was back in the big PX by 69. But it's true that Westmoreland wasn't a fan of ARVAN (who was :roflol:) and didn't support ":winning the hearts and minds" or the Civil Action Platoons (CAP)

    But all ARVAN troops I saw and RVN Marines were armed with the same weapons as we were. Now early on ARVAN were armed with WW ll era weapons and the M-1 Garand was a better rifle than the M-16. But the M-1 Garand was to much of a rifle for Vietnamese, it's a rifle that takes a real soldier to handle.

    Now the M-1 carbine is was well suited for ARVAN but the M-1 carbine is a pea shooter, originally produced to replace the .45 ACP M-1911 A1 pistol.

    More than half of the time I went up against NVA troops, most were armed with the AK-47 but many were also armed with SKS's.
     
  15. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    Vietnam – 40 Years Later

    [​IMG]

    And just down the street, they're selling tee shirts with pictures of Uncle Ho and the hammer and cycle. Seems many of the boat people and expats are returning and making big changes. I had no idea that 'Nam is a huge market for Apple products with 75% of all the country's users.

    Read more @ http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/29/vietnam-in-us-orbit.html#

    And BBC shares 'Nam photos @ http://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-32483307

    [​IMG]

    And they just couldn't help themselves by posting the two photos that caused the anti-war crowd to go nuts. Two incidents out of decades of strife.
     
  16. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sadly no lessons have been learned from Vietnam.
    After a brief, historically speaking, pause in American military adventurism,
    We Are At It Again.
    Why are we still in Afghanistan? Osama is dead.
    And all those Middle East incursions economic and military without thinking through
    who fills the power vacuum.
    Anyone who knew anything even before knew, the suppressed Islamist aka Muslim Brotherhood would rise.

    Why Vietnam
    Why Iraq
    Why Afghanistan

    $ $ $ $ $ $
    Military Industrial Government Complex
    Munitions must be spent to order, more.


    And the American voter has become too cowardly to vote America out of this RepubloCratic Situation.
    Dare I :roll: Vote Third Party and Throw Away My Vote :no:

    The lack of a draft creates further apathy.
    We need the draft for any military deployment lasting over 9 months.
    Then we won't be there ten years :wink:

    I guess they learned if they want to have extended wars, do it with a volunteer army and no one really, will care.


    Moi :oldman:

    r > g


    No :flagcanada:
     
  17. longknife

    longknife New Member

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  18. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Not only was the Vietnam war criminally illegal in that it forced Americans to die for a foreign government, it also took the lives of civilians:


    [​IMG]



    in those days conservatives were only too eager to applaud the repressive actions of the government - that, of course, because they all dodged the draft




    Today is the 45th anniversary of Kent State. Since the right wingers on this forum are all so anti-government, let's see them condemn that criminal act just as we patriots always did.
     
  19. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    The rail head at Lao Cai remained the most important entry point (by rail) of Russian and Chinese materials during the Vietnam War. China is right across the river at Lao Cai. American military was hesitant in bombing Lao Cai due to its close proximity to the Chinese border. Also for a lot of the year Lao Cai is shrouded in fog. Any mishap there could have brought China into the war.
     
  20. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    More Chinese made Type 56s (AK -47 copies) were found in the hands of Viet Cong than AK-47s. A little know fact.
     
  21. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    Kim_Phuc_napalm_Viet-Nam.jpg
    You need to check out Vietnam. I've been there three times as a tourist. I love Ha Noi but Ho Chi Minh City not so,,, dunno, never felt comfortable in HCMC. Vietnam is opening up very quickly especially in the major cities. A very easy place to get around due to the very good rail network. Lovely people and good food ( I tend to judge a nation by its food and people).

    A couple of years ago I was sitting in a little restaurant in Hue. All the cutlery was stamped US Army.

    Kim_Phuc_napalm_Viet-Nam.jpg

    Probably the most poignant image to come out of the Vietnam War
     
  22. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Was it the military or the civilians with in the State Department and the DOD and LBJ who was micromanaging the war ?

    I think the military leadership (brass) sided with President/General Esienhower strategy, don't try to fight a war in the RVN. If the civilians decided to ignore Esienhower and we find ourselves in a shooting war in the RVN, it has to be fought as total war. JFK and LBJ rejected Esienhower's and the military brass advice.


    excerpt:
     
  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yesterday I was doing some research on the rules of war regarding the use of napalm.

    Every liberal and anti war website are still telling the lie that it was American aircraft that napalmed the village in the photo above. It was a lie being told by the radical left in America.

    It was RVNAF aircraft that bombed the village and if you look closely at the photo, those are ARVN troops in the photo not Americans. There were no American troops or American aircraft even with in the area at the time when the bombing took place. It was just another anti-American left wing lie.
     
  24. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most of the AK-47's issued to the NVA and VC were Chinese manufactured the Type-56. But it wasn't uncommon coming across NVA who were armed with Eastern European Soviet Bloc AK-47's. These were of better quality than the Chinese made Type-56 (AK-47's.)

    The Chinese manufactured Type-56 were really easy to identify from a distance, they had full front sight shrouds while the Soviet and Eastern Bloc AK-47's didn't.
    The original chi-com Type-56 had a milled steel receiver while the newer ones had a stamped steel receiver and a folding bayonet.

    I was in-country 69-70 up in l Corps. Most of the NVA were armed with mostly chi-com Type-56 and SKS carbines weren't uncommon with the NVA REMF's.
    "Main Force" VC were armed with chi-com's Type-56 and SKS. "Regional Force" VC seemed to be armed with just about everything from Type-56, SKS, M-1 carbines and M-16's.

    After a fire fight or when we came across a NVA or VC weapons or supply cache we were suppose to list how many pounds of rice, rounds of ammunition, grenades and if they were chi-com grenades or not, mines and who were they manufactured by, etc. All captured AK-47's were suppose to be identified by who they were manufactured by.

    We once came across one NVA cache, a good find. A few tons of rice, a thousand chi-com grenades, couple hundred RPG rounds and well over 500,000 rounds of 7.62X39 and about 200 AK-47's. What raised eyebrows, the AK-47's were all manufactured in Czechoslovakia.
     
  25. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    It was a South Vietnamese aircraft that napalmed Kim Phuc's village. The order was given by an American officer. The American officer, a Major if I remember rightly, never forgot the incident and it haunted him all his life. I believe he later became a pastor or something like that.

    Btw,, "The Girl in the Picture" is a great read. It's all in the book.

    The photo of Kim Phuc was used by both the North Vietnamese and the anti war movement for their own purposes.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Girl-Picture-Photograph-Vietnam/dp/0140280219
     

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