Theists - How can you believe? Seriously ...

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by tkolter, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking honestly if I walked up to any of you said I met a talking donkey, that walked across the ocean giving me a ride to a secret island where all the women were hot and I had sex with them for twenty years as their king that was a day our time due to a magic pocket stop watch. Then rode back and was serious and now I'm going to force everyone to worship The Donkey you would have me Baker Acted most likely. Justly since that is a crazy story and who knows what force I would use. :crazy:

    But you believe taking the Torah narrative this being, existed before everything, created light with just saying, formed man and then woman, was seduced by a talking snake to eat a apple of sin from a special tree and later in other stories this being had a donkey talk and such THAT you believe. :wall:

    I can go through a lot of other religions here but you get my point.

    I get why primitives who didn't understand the fire circle in the sky and such were believing this but modern humans?!?! :omg:

    We have science we know about the sun, deciphered the human genome, split the atom, are sending probes into space and lots of other things we should understand when something is in a religious book which contradicts the knowledge we have its NOT true. Global Flood is not proven at all, we get the Exodus has no evidence, Fossils and genetic studies date the species of our planet to vastly ancient times going back many eons. We know this its science that counters the religious narratives of most faiths. :graduate:

    So how can you believe I don't get it?
     
  2. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Its kinda like explaining sex to a virgin... until the virgin gets laid he/she will not be able to understand. As a Deist I have more in common with atheists as I reject the dogma of religion... yet I do believe in God. But as I have no empirical proof of God and say that my belief starts where my reason ends, I will never try to persuade others to believe as I do... nor am I under any mandate by God to do so. I actually cannot speak intelligently about God as how does one define a theological intangible? My belief is my own and I leave the preaching to the dogmatic religions of the world.
     
  3. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    a better question (for me) would be, how can anyone believe in gods given the incredibly poor and flimsy definitions man has come up with? they're pathetically vague and insubstantial, and/or describe a creature so thumpingly un-god-like (and the notion of perfection in our gods is put forward by the very people who describe something quite different) that they deserve no more than dismissal.
     
  4. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    Just because man hasn't produced a believable version of God doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

    The only honest position for me is "I don't know". If God exists then he/it/whatever exists on a level far beyond my human understanding, and it's arrogant to think that I (or anyone) could understand something so complex. The smartest cat in the world will not be able to understand how a car operates, yet the car operates regardless of the cat's understanding of it. That's how I view the God issue. It's hard for me to believe in concepts like "pre-existing matter" as well.
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    fair enough :)

    however I'd suggest that your example doesn't work because the car exists, even if the cat doesn't 'understand' it. entirely different proposition.
     
  6. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    But God could exist also.
     
  7. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Some of us come to believe based upon a deeply personal experience that we interpret as "miraculous" for the lack of a better word. After many times of trying and failing to conquer addiction, I finally overcame addiction once I called out to God in desperation for help. An atheist could easily and effectively argue that I just hit my breaking point and pulled myself by my bootstraps... to which I could not mount a good rebuttal other than to say "I believe that God gave me strength". I could be wrong, but as I am under no mandate to persuade others to my position and as my position is not effected by the approval/disapproval of others it matters little. Belief makes my life better while at the same time does not harm others.
     
  8. ronmatt

    ronmatt New Member

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    Way down deep. in the dark of night when there's just you...and you. What do you believe? How many books on the various disciplines of science that you've read (and totally understood) would you sacrifice your life for defending their absolute truth? Any? Be honest now, there's no need to answer except to yourself. You site knowledge of the sun, genetics, atomic theory, space exploration "and lots of other things", Yet, facts be known, our knowledge of the sun is sketchy, at best, and we are learning new things about it all the time. We have deciphered the human genome (rah) but have little knowledge of how it came to be or why it is the way it is. Atomic theory? we can't even agree on what an atom is, how it behaves. Is it particles or waves..or both. Sending probes into space(?) we have barely penetrated the universe. If anything our greatest scientific achievement is that we are finally discovering what the right questions are to ask. You compare physics to metaphysics. They are apples and oranges and one does not mutually exclude the other. You have no argument to make
     
  9. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... almost as bad as their definitions of such things as "objective reality" and "truth". And it is said that science seeks truth: LOL .... how can science be looking for such a thing as 'truth' when science cannot even provide a definition of 'truth' that is irrefutable and unambiguous and satisfying to all who would be faced with the subject matter of 'truth'?
     
  10. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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  11. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    COULD isn't the same as DOES. not even close.

    besides, working with coulds is a mug's game. there COULD be a master race of submarine giraffes living in the oceans of a planet somewhere in the next universe ... but ought anyone here on earth actually factor that 'could' into their daily deliberations?
     
  13. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    Probably none, because that's idiotic hyperbole. The universe was either created or it wasn't. If it was, then something created it.
     
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    how is it any more idiotic than the outlandish COULDS thus far invented? it's precisely as idiotic, and even perhaps less so than some.

    whether the whole shebang was created is not a question that requires much attention. it has little or no bearing on our lives, to have this question still unanswered.
     
  15. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    Because I'm speaking of God as a generalized concept, not as a specific animal living in specific places doing specific things like you are describing.

    You seem to be sure enough on this topic to argue with me about it, even though my position is "I don't know".
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I have no idea what a generalised concept god is. To me, the possibility (or not) of gods has precisely the same import as the question of whether they're submarine giraffes, or jewish superheroes. In other words, very little. While I don't know, I also don't care - simply because gods have no impact on our existence in any meaningful way. While they remain utterly undetectable and unknowable, they're utterly pointless to dwell on. Hope that makes more sense :)
     
  17. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    Donkeys talk all the time :democrat:
     
  18. junobet

    junobet New Member

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    Just speaking for myself and in all modesty: I can believe because my ideas about God are slightly more advanced than those that evangelical fundamentalists and new atheists like to hold. God is not an unreasonable philosophical proposal. Plus He is an undeniable reality in my personal experience. So I believe that He's always there just like I believe that my mother loves me. Basic trust.
     
  19. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    I don't remember who wrote it, but there's a guy who wrote a best selling book that analyzes people's psychology, brain chemistry and so-on to conclude that we're hard-wired to develop a belief in a higher power. His conclusion was that this disproves the existence of God. I really wonder how someone could arguably prove that we're hard-wired to be led towards a belief in a higher power and then conclude that this means there is no higher power. Atheism is not our default, they are people who have deliberately chosen to reject God. I feel bad for them as they putter through life mainly because they are too afraid to die, their hearts full of empty scorn towards normal people.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    They came to that conclusion because it supports the idea we're pattern seekers. Which in turn supports our higher mammal status.

    Actually atheism is our default. No babies or toddlers have gods. It takes an adult to install something which appears to answer the search for patterns. Appears to as long as you only view it in very dim light, with eyes half closed, while wearing semi-opaque goggles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But you know your mother loves you because she has tangibly demonstrated her love countless times, over many years. TANGIBLY being the operative word. She has actively earned your trust.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So could a lot of imaginary things...... they COULD exist but that doesn't prove they do...

    ..or why they would or should exist...
     
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    The descriptions/explanations of god by believers ISN'T hyperbole !?!?
     
  23. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    People aren't babies or toddlers their whole life. This isn't really a new idea, it's just the sensus divinitatis iterated upon and then drawn to the opposite conclusion because that's where the author wanted to take it.

    If you scroll down to the common criticisms of the sensus divinitatis, I think they're all bunk. It's not an exhortation to a specific religious doctrine but towards a general sense of divinity or higher power. Christians and other religious people are demonstrably more moral than non-Christians when you compare practically any kind of attribute, from charitable giving to crime rates. The argument regarding theism in Saudi Arabia and Thailand suffers from the common western misconception that Buddhism isn't a religion, which itself reveals how little the author understands what he's talking about. Some bad stuff on Wikipedia really but it does serve as a basic introduction to the concept of the sensus divinitatis.
     
  24. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, its a pretty non-traditional deism you follow.

    I think I understand though and it matches with my agnosticism. There are moments when everything fits together and makes perfect sense and its common for me to feel a presence during those times. On the other hand I have moments where everything seems to be pointless and I am certain I (and all others) am completely alone.

    So I tend to teeter between these two. Instead of picking one I choose to align myself in the middle. Both perceptions make perfect sense to me.
     
  25. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Without a grand purpose it's meaningless.
     

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