Time to end the academic arms race

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From the Economist, Time to end the academic arms race - excerpt:

    [​IMG]

    I could not agree more, even though about 55% of Americans do not have a post-secondary degree of any kind. Meaning that there are five-types; the first being "vocational" and the others "Associate", "Bachelors", "Masters" and "Doctorate".

    But first you need to get out of high-school.

    How much of our kids could do very well indeed with a Vocation-level degree? A great many I should think. Then, let's make sure they can get that degree for nuthin' or next-to-nuthin'*. (That was proposed by both Bernie and Hillary, a Great Idea to which American voters in 2017 mindlessly gave their Index Finger.)

    THAT is the sort of investment that will allow more Americans steady-jobs, and reduce our awesome percentage of the population living below the Poverty Threshold (about 46 million men, women and children).

    *The European Union gets it right: By sending children to public post-secondary schooling where annual tuition costs less than $1K a year!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  2. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    Bernie and Hillary wanted all college paid for, which ridiculous.

    Vocational schools are usually inexpensive and the right expresses their approval for these technical degrees all the time.

    The left wants to have useless degrees like liberal arts and womens studies degrees paid for by the American public. degrees that have almost no return on their investment and zero applications in the real world.

    The EU also doesn't have to pay for their own defense, so I agree we should bring our troops out of the EU and let them pick up the bills for their own defenses and maybe we can subsidize vocational schools for people who go and complete their degree in something worthy that keeps people employed.
     
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  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've understood nothing the post.

    Education is the key to Career Success in the Information Age at all levels. Just like secondary-schooling did for Americans at the turn of the 20th century.

    Some people do not know how to learn from history's lessons, which is why some nations keep repeating the past*.

    And the US is behaving just like one of those nations ...

    *Frankly, though well educated, it seems that with Brexit the Brits have not finally learned that lesson. This year, whilst most of the EU economy perked up, the UK did not. We'll see how well they adjust in the coming 3/4 years ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  4. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what you are getting a degree in. Most degrees that would be considered "liberal" in ideology, or even careers in the social aspect of society, you wont make that much. Most degrees that women focus their choice of study in have very little pay like teaching. Trade skills in plumbing or HVAC will typically make more than the elementary school teacher with a bachelors.

    All nations do typically. Did you know that even with 150 million deaths cause of socialism and communism in the 20th century, there is a growing call for more socialism?

    The UK hasn't even fully left the EU yet.
     
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your intent with this answer is unsure.

    Do you mean that it is not worthwhile getting an advanced degree if the pay-increase does not justify it?

    Pay is the only criteria for having a better set of smarts?

    Many people, including myself, think the cost of intelligence has no price ...

    Your ignorance is showing. Socialism exists nowhere in the world (except maybe North Korea).

    What has taken its place is Social Democracy, which was from the very beginning the foundation stone of the European Union. The EU has a total population that is 56% greater than the US, whilst being smaller in GDP per capita (62% of the EU).

    The two entities are nonetheless comparable, and both mutually engage in competition internationally on a wide range of common products/services.

    It'll be back.

    About 43% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2016; that is, £240 billion out of £550 billion total exports.

    Leaving the EU, a new set of import tariffs will apply - resulting in job-losses in the UK. Unless, some how, miraculously, the Brits awaken suddenly to the awful mistake they have made.

    I doubt that will happen so quickly, and I'm betting on return in 5/10 years ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you mean that it is not worthwhile getting an advanced degree if the pay-increase does not justify it? Pay is the only criteria for having a better set of smarts?

    Many people, including myself, think the cost of intelligence has no price ...

    Your ignorance is showing. Socialism exists nowhere in the world (except maybe North Korea).

    What has taken its place is Social Democracy, which was from the very beginning the foundation stone of the European Union. The EU has a total population that is 56% greater than the US, whilst being smaller in GDP per capita (62% of the EU).

    The two entities are nonetheless comparable, and both mutually engage in competition internationally on a wide range of common products/services.


    It'll be back.

    About 43% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2016; that is, £240 billion out of £550 billion total exports.

    Leaving the EU, a new set of import tariffs will apply - resulting in job-losses in the UK. Unless, some how, miraculously, the Brits awaken suddenly to the awful mistake they have made. (Already a large contingent of Polish doctors and nurses are applying for jobs in France, where there is great need of them.

    I doubt that the UK will return to the EU very quickly, and I'm betting on a return in 5/10 years. A bit of economic suffering really helps greatly to understand how bad the consequences of such a monumental mistake* can be ...

    *Even Donald Dork is beginning to understand that leaving NAFTA would be a huge mistake. That is, if he is capable of understanding anything that is longer than a tweet!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  7. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Y'know any large bloc can economically bully a smaller nation into giving up its sovereignty. But at some point people will probably resist, and tend toward political independence.

    Usually, we'll say good on them, they should fight for independence, they deserve the right to self determination. And then we'll criticise the larger nation attempting to exert power over the other; think Russia, China, the US -- all have their satellites.

    The question always arises. Why should sovereignty come into a mutually beneficial trade arrangement? There's no reason to put major obstacles in the way of business deals which naturally benefit both parties in the absence of 'political union'. At least I haven't heard a convincing argument in favour of this. This is just a large bloc using economic leverage to gain political power, it's the sort of thing the left usually is against. Oh well.
     
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  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unless you can give me a concrete example as regards signed NAFTA and EU trade-agreements, I am not sure to what you are referring.

    Trade agreements tend to remain concentrated on inter-country commercial tariffs. Not politics ...
     
  9. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    It's not that complicated.

    The EU evolved from a trade agreement.

    Iteratively this arrangement morphed into political union.

    My point is that you do not need the latter to justify the former. Britain wants to trade with Europe -- and retain its sovereignty. I haven't heard a credible argument for why that is an unreasonable request. The only reason seems to be that the EU doesn't want it that way because really this is just a slow power grab using trading benefits as leverage.

    If this really was just about mutually beneficial trading arrangements there wouldn't be an argument to have. Brexit most likely wouldn't even be discussed. It's the political aspect, ie: that the EU demands jurisdiction over all member states which is the problem.

    To understand a little about how this works in practice watch:
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    The EU is a diplomatic institution that wishes to be a government.
    Trade is the carrot they offer.

    An example of their political will is their desire to be considered democratic. To have elected ministers. And their referring to the population of those countries who have signed up to this trade agreement as "their citisens". Another would be their flag.
    What trade agreement requires a flag or an army?
    What trade treaty has citisens?

    There will be no trade for mutual benefit because mutual benefit is not their goal. Rulership is. Subjugation.
     
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  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have got events VERY WRONG.

    EU membership did not in the least compromise Britain's sovereignty any more than the NAFTA membership compromised that of either the US, Canada or Mexico.

    Treaty agreements set up rule-structures under which independent countries can work together in matter such as trade - but not only trade as regards the EU.

    Brexit is the result of foolish plebiscite that a British PM decided to have and God-knows for what reason. John Major hasn't been heard from since he lost the vote and resigned as PM. (The best thing that could happen to Britain is that another vote be taken to rescind Brexit. It will be a disaster for GB and just the threat of Brexit has caused lower GB economic growth rates this year.)

    And, you have apparently very little idea of how the EU works. All nations agree to a central-list of "must haves" without which membership in the EU is refused. (Turkey is finding that out the hard way.)
     
  12. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Nope.

    Legislation coming out of Brussels directs EVERYTHING down to the most minute detail. All social policy which used to be in the hands of governments is in the hands of the bureaucracy. Any domestic law which comes into conflict with EU legislation is null and void, and EU legislation proliferates so much no-one could possibly even read it all.

    Sovereignty requires Controll over your law and policy making system. The EU doesn't allow for this, this is just common knowledge. Try again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bollocks.

    In fact, the greatest failure so far is that (even with a legislature in Strasbourg) all that Berlaymont does is manage the negotiating process with the various country heads-of-state by which all agree to certain political decisions. (Which are often watered down because the Eastern-europe countries haven't yet the foggiest notion of "fairness" - whilst enjoying immensely EU subsidies for farming.)

    All the key rules regarding the "administrative" laws of Europe are signed by treaty, the most important one to date is that of Maastricht, which gave birth to the Euro. And which not all countries signed - the notable exception being the UK. Any country wanting entry to the EU, must sign a separate treaty that becomes part of their national law.

    Should they not accept certain EU-regulations, then entry-negotiations stop (like Turkey). If they abrogate certain regulations - like internal budget management necessary to avoid excessive debt - then they are pointed the exit-door (like Greece).

    The EU is like the US in many respects, the foremost of which is a fairly common currency with which to compete with the dollar. But it is only remotely similar when it comes to internal political independence. The US "states" haven't even a tenth of the legal independence as do EU-countries.

    There is thus significant "independence" at the local level, for which heads-of-state manage their own business internal to the country in accordance with agreements made uniformly across the EU in Brussels.

    Neither does the EU have an elected Executive as does the US, with a central-budget to spend as s/he sees fit. Nor is there any universal taxation in Europe, except the fact that sales-taxes are roughly similar (around 20%). Income and other tax rates are set by country governments.

    Enough said? Probably not ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  14. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Yes what we need is a more aggressive centralisation of power. Everything which comes out of the EU Commission is just the result of negotiations between heads of state? Things which have already been agreed in principle. You’ll have to provide evidence of how you’ve come to this conclusion. But even if it were true all it would mean is that the EU Commission is a way of circumventing a domestic democratic process in which elected member of parliament could vote on domestic initiatives. Instead legislation which affects the entire continent is conceived by a handful of leaders, put forward by an independent unelected legislature and then voted on by MEP’s.


    And people might think that this is where EU citizens get their say — at the European parliament. But in practice your ability to influence decisions as one member state is negligible in practice and you know it. So even if it’s a law which the UK is not interested in, it will come to be. And this covers trade, defence, agriculture, monetary policy, transport, environment etc etc etc.

    That elites sign away our self determination doesn’t really make me happy about it. If I’m honest, I’d like to see a lot less state power in the world in general. So this isn’t some kind of nationalist call in favour of the primacy of my own government. I am against the centralisation of power inn general. Why?

    Well what you find if you really look into who is pulling the strings when it comes to EU legislation and its economic plans it’s often trans-national corporations; who are generally in favour of the EU. During the referendum the banks, the corps, Obama, Tony Blair, Soros ’n’ co (all the gang) were all bearing down on the UK urging them to vote a certain way. This is because they want decision making to be centralised so that it’s easier to herd the continent in one direction as a monolithic bloc. It’s no coincidence that the European institutions in Brussels are surrounded by the biggest lobbying community outside of Washington.

    Sure. And we don’t want to be. We don’t want to be a state within a federalised Europe answerable to Brussels the way each state in America is answerable to Washington. We’ve always traded with Europe, will continue to do so. Don’t want to be federalised. Again never heard an argument for why that should be compulsory in order to trade.

    Sure, the EU isn’t yet a state. But you see how much more it behaves like a state in comparison to its inception? The EU has been absolutely consistent on this point, and it cannot be anything other than a conscious, calculated and focused effort. If you really don’t see the end game and you buy the line that this is all just conspiracy then it’s OK to hold that view. I don’t. The trajectory thus far indicates otherwise.
     
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  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    De gustibus non disputandum est.

    Moving right along ...
     
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  16. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Shame the discussion is often hijacked by bigots and an elite looking to exploit workers and the environment. Nothing wrong with a Bennite Brexit!
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not in the least, joker.

    Not when you are dirt-poor and can't send your kids to them because they are too damn expensive.

    Only 42% of American students (with high-school degrees, which is 92% of the total who graduate), are proceeding to obtain tertiary-degrees that are now indispensable for a decent job and avoiding unemployment. (See here.)

    Europe has proven amply enough that it is well worth the effort to minimize Defense Expenditures and maximize investment in post-secondary education. (Let the Yanks go off and die fighting useless wars. They LOVE burying their dead!)

    After a devastating world-war, much of Europe is back at to the level of the US in terms of percent of the population with tertiary-level degrees. And why? Because said degrees are free, gratis and cost very little.

    Written out of ignorance of the fact that we are transiting ages. We are leaving the Industrial Age and entering the Information Age. It is in the latter that "skills" are found at much higher levels of education. (Especially since industry is being robotized more and more by the hour.

    Yes, we need bakers, and cooks, and carpenters, and all kinds of traditional manpower skills. But not nearly as many as in the past. We need tertiary-level skills more and more - and those skills cost an arm-and-a-leg in the US.

    So, the option is either:
    *Investing in post-secondary skills training that is virtually free for our kids, or
    *If not, paying for their unemployment in the future.

    Which do you think is the better option? The latter, I suspect.

    If ignorance were bliss, you'd be in heaven.

    Since the dawn of mankind intelligence is the single most factor that disassociated mankind from the rest of the animal inhabitants on this planet.

    Which is why you are participating in this forum today.

    I agree, and I know Germans who would wholeheartedly like to see the "Yanks go home". We've overstayed our welcome by about 60-years - and most certainly ever since East-Germany was folded into West Germany. (And Russia is now run by a bunch of oligopolists.)

    When a government has to open McDonalds restaurants on an army-base in Germany to cater to its "soldiers", one knows that something has gone drastically wrong.

    There are far more important needs where the funds could be better employed ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  18. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    ....with German cuisine.
     
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  19. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Its not simple. The origins of European integration can be traced back to the Marshall Plan and efforts to minimise the threat of repeating European conflict. It was always more than just a trade agreement. Political integration was part of the plan from the onset.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The title of the article alludes to an interesting perspective, one that unfortunately the article only briefly touched on.
     
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  21. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Its the Economist. The title is the only thing of interest
     
  22. james M

    james M Banned

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    Great, we can tax people who don't want a degree or don't qualify for one to pay for it. Ripping them off seems fair- right? We can make HS drop outs pay for folks to get their PH.D's.

    not to mention that education is free on line these days. My nephew got BA on line free then scholarship to law school. A friends kid is getting BA in engineering on line from Arizona university.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Positive externalities is another economic concept that you don't understand!
     
  24. james M

    james M Banned

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    if the libcommie has evidence that I don't understand I will pay him $10,000. Bet?
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You ignored the response, as usual. I stated "positive externalities is another economic concept that you don't understand!" when you made degree comment that ignored those positive externalities. Could you find someone to vet your comments?
     

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