Time to Get Real About Ukraine

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Destroyer of illusions, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That only applies to the US and it is even written your pledge of allegiance, “One nation, under god, indivisible …”. It also applies to all American possession (ambiguous) such as NATO and (in that capacity) it applies to Donbas within Ukraine. However, it does not apply to the secession of Russia, for example. If THAT were seen in a dim view then the US would be supporting Ukraine's return to Russia or its Federation as well as all of the former states of the Sovjet Union and Yugoslavia.
     
  2. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    The USSR ceased to exist, and Ukraine became an independent state.
     
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  3. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly, and the US took no 'dim view' of it. The only reason they might in this instance is that 1). The US wants to destroy Russia's cohesiveness and 2). The US wants to whittle away at Russia's buffer and so including the Donbas in Ukraine's NATO membership thus giving the US access to the strategic ports. Also, I am certain that the notion of "indivisibility" applies to NATO, as seen by the US. In other words, leaving NATO would be considered traitorous in US jargon. Make no mistake, it is US control over the Donbas that is at the heart of this war. Zelinsky and the Ukrainian people mean nothing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2023
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  4. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    What Ukraine did was not secession from a functioning state. Ukraine charted an independent course as the state of which it had been a part ceased to exist. Your claim fails.
    Any member state may leave NATO at any time. France did.
    On 21 June 1963, France also withdrew its Atlantic and Channel fleets from NATO command. The rift deepened on 10 March 1966, when General de Gaulle officially announced that France intended to withdraw from the Alliance and demanded that all NATO bases be removed from French territory.

    France and NATO - Historical events in the ... - CVCE eu
     
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  5. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what is my "failed claim"?
    Technically that's true. But the outcome doesn't "fail" me. France IS a NATO member. So maybe any member state could have left NATO at any time. I was in Vietnam when "... the rift deepened on 10 March 1966". Some of the soldiers stationed in France were sent to my unit in the Central Highlands so I remember it rather well. They weren't happy about it.

    Let me make one thing clear: I have no doubt that officially "Any member state may leave NATO at any time" but experience tells me that the US probably isn't going to allow that to happen. The CIA has a mafia-based habit of making offers you can't refuse.
     
  6. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ukraine did not secede from the USSR. The USSR ceased to exist. There was never a time when Ukraine was part of the Russian Federation. Ukraine has no obligation whatsoever to Russia.
     
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  7. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nonsense.
     
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  8. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's a technicality but OK.
    It does now.
    You like that word, don-cha'.
     
  9. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    How do you know what they wanted?
     
  10. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    How exactly US wanted to destroy Russia, what evidence you have? I can bet money that you will never ever answer this question, because as other bots and useful Western idiots, you just don't know the answer. But it does not mean, that you will not repeat it 1000 times again without any facts. How it is working here we can see on the example of wannabee redneck from Olgino bot farm - Billy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
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  11. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    Here we can see total ignorance of well known facts. It's a fact, that France left NATO and US did nothing. But here we can see total bulshit statements based not on facts, but "experience" of self-proclaimed genius.
     
  12. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    They also forget that in 1976, just as communist regimes had taken control in the whole of Indochina, Thailand threw out all the US bases. What did America do? Nuthin'. No invasion, no sanctions, not even harsh language. Thailand remains a valued US ally in the region.

    As always the attempt to make the US the same as the dictatorships they support requires the torturing of facts & the outright invention of alternate realities.
     
  13. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you honestly never seen an interview with them?
    In six parts. You can skip the first one if you want:
     
  14. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe you need to read #2278 and #2280 again. Make sure you read all of the words on the page this time. that would be really nice and educational. :nod:
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
  15. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    They just can't imagine different attitude as making allied nations their vassals and invade and kill those, who did not agree with them. They still have something like 19th century imperialist mindset, just in more primitive way, because they didn't hear about balance of power, what is one of the reasons why US don't want to destroy Russia and never wanted it. US even was against desolation of USSR.
     
  16. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    Interview with millions of people living in Donbas? No, never seen. I bet You saw, right? But where?

    As I proposed, you can't even stick 2 words together from Yourself and as real copy and paste bot just copy and paste some bullshit video prom YouTube. "Americans has been told, that Russians are evil people." Yeah, right...
    :D



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
  17. Tofiks

    Tofiks Banned

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    What I have to read? You wrote that "Any member state may leave NATO at any time" but experience tells me that the US probably isn't going to allow that to happen." US let France leave NATO. And You, as a self-proclaimed genius, don't even knew about this. For sure, it has not been told in YouTube bullshit videos, what is Your main source of "knowledge" :D
     
  18. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, your answer is "no"? That explains why you don't know what they want. Is that a surprise? :laughing:
    I have been told that "Russians are evil people". I call that first-hand information. The report (the one that I linked) confirms that people in the US are taught "Russians are evil". That makes for much more proof than someone who doesn't know ... and doesn't want to know. 2 - 0 against you.
    No, you made yet another absurd conclusion from what I said. I defend or concede what I've said .... not what I didn't say. How is it possible you do not understand that? Seriously! :omfg:
     
  19. USVet

    USVet Well-Known Member

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    France has never left NATO. It simply is not part of the unified command structure. It is still very much a treaty member.
     
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  20. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The issue is if France actually was a non-member for a short period.
     
  21. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    It did boot US bases off its territory, place restrictions on the way its forces would co-operate etc. No Warsaw Pact nation was permitted to do anything close to this, which is the useful comparison here. In fact, Warsaw Pact nations (or nations that would become part of it) were treated to Soviet led invasions just for daring to have governments that Moscow disapproved of.

    Our pro-Moscow faction don't much care about this. They prefer to invent scenarios where the US would do something like this if a nation withdrew from NATO, even though it did not when presented with a situation very close to that.
     
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  22. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, the Warsaw Pact treated its members so fairly that not one of its members wanted to leave. There were protests (in H & ČS) for reforms but no one wanted to leave. NATO, on the other hand ..... the US was so treacherous that France kicked the Americans out. That is where "the useful comparison" is to be found. But ..... isn't that really, really obvious? Duh! :lol:
     
  23. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely correct and that is something that the Anti-Ukrainiaks will never admit or understand. Shows how deep Kremlin propaganda has has been implanted in the minds of pro Kremlin zombies.


    “In 1966, when French President Charles de Gaulle withdrew French forces from the military command structure, NATO's headquarters was forced to move to Belgium. SHAPE was moved to Casteau, north of the Belgian city of Mons.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2023
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  24. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    This is why I like you. The fantasy runs so deep that you can't even see it any more. The idea that a bunch of dictatorships installed by Moscow, several of whom were invaded by Russia during the Cold War to keep them in line, were somehow willing members of a 'fair' alliance would make the most dedicated Commisar for Agitprop blush.The worst bit isn't the pernicious fantasy, but the deliberate choice to treat the subjects of these dictatorships as if they didn't exist. It puts all your views in context and helps to explain your contempt for Ukraine.
     
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  25. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    To yeh Pravda!
     
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