Too Smart to stop thinking too Stupid to stop.

I have a problem that has been bothering me since I was about 6 years old....and that problem is my utter, complete and total disappointment of not being able to abide by any Religious Beliefs.

Now here is my quick background for those who don't know....Dad was a Military Officer and my Mom was a "CIVILIAN" in the manner the quotes denote and oversaw SAC.

Both were extremely intelligent holding multiple degrees and were well trained in the extreme and physical specimen's. Now I am like them but even more so and I also hold multiple degrees am well trained and I have KILLED....but only because I had to.

I always wanted to be able to believe in a GOD but my intelligence, experiences and education which is extensive has allowed me to understand this is not possible at least in a GOD existing in the manner any organized religion describes it.

What I would like to discuss is for members to provide examples that might provide some link of logic in the possibility a single entity that could be called a GOD might exist.

And I SWEAR....if any idiot starts quoting the Bible or Religious Text I will make them sorry.

I am looking for reasons based upon LOGIC, SCIENCE and especially QUANTUM MECHANICS AND MULTIVERSAL THEORY.

So...can anyone help?

AboveAlpha

 

no

I, too, come from a thinky family - but this hasn't necessarily inoculated all of us from the virus of religion. one member went mental for jebus, another got a bit new age for a while there. either way, neither myself nor most of my educated heathen relations have ever seen anything even remotely like a sound argument for god/s. no matter how many different approaches we've collectively tried, or how many arguments for and against we've devoured, or how many personal dramas we've endured, or how many deaths and/or disease of loved ones have been suffered through, it all still walks, talks and smells like 'mental illness'.

 

There is this connectivity which all people who understand Quantum Mechanics are aware of.

You see that regardless if a thing is alive or not or a rock or a person.....EVERYTHING is comprised of the same things and I am not specifically talking about atoms.

An Atom is comprised of an Atomic Nucleus that has Protons and with the exception of Hydrogen...Neutrons and surrounding this Atomic Nucleus are Electron Orbital Fields.

Now Electrons exist in number the same as Protons but Electrons are Quantum Particle/Wave Forms as well Hadrons....ie...Protons and Neutrons are completely comprised of various Quantum Particle/Wave Forms....such as Quarks. Gluons, Leptons, Mesons, Higgs-Bosons...etc.

The point is that EVERYTHING be it alive or not is completely upon the smallest level or Quantum Level is made up of Quantum Particle/Wave Forms.

They are called this because they exist as both Particle and Wave meaning they need at a minimum a 10 or 11 dimensional state Universal Reality to exist.

Now here in lies the dilemma....for these Quanta to exist as both Particle and Wave as well as obtain more than one function and exist as indeterminate in position and reality.....this gives evidence to a Multiversal System being in play.

When a person can understand their reality upon this level it gives us little ability to consider any GOD existing as in a manner described by various religions except on the GAIA PRINCIPLE.

AboveAlpha

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah....this is the link of replies I am expecting....but you never know.

AboveAlpha

 

Sorry, but you'll need to abandon logic, science, reason, consistency, morality, and common sense....and embrace FAITH. Christians do this because they are FEARFUL. Pretty much only the fear of not knowing where you go when you die can get someone to give up all the things I just mentioned. Jesus and Mohammad knew that. They knew that people can be weak-minded, and often let fear trump fact. Jesus/Mohammad must be discredited, for humanity to progress much further.

 

Yeah...weak minded I am not.

AboveAlpha

 

sorry I couldn't help. that's been my own and my extended family's experience with 'faith'.

meantime, my limited understanding of quantum (theoretical in particular) physics is that the multiverse model is entirely possible - for the very reasons you mention. I personally don't have a problem with the idea of an mverse, but then again I don't spend much time thinking about what the other cranks might be doing. or even if other verses actually align to that especially childlike and solipsistic view of multiplicity.

 

One of the realities I cannot ignore if if there was indeed a GOD....capable of knowing everything and controlling everything that it would have to exist in a size larger and more massive than all quantum Particle/Wave Forms existing in a Multiverse.

If this was so we would be able to detect it.

AboveAlpha

 

probably. maybe. can a nano particle detect a whale shark? or is that question hogtied by thinking in organics? a nano machine can detect a macro machine .. so yeah.

either way, the concept of god is absurd.

 

Here is a link to just a list of Roman Catholic scientists, 25 of whom are listed as physicists. I won't pretend to understand quantum physics because I'm a business guy with a technical background, not a scientist or student of the sciences. There is a false perception that people of faith have no desire to learn, use or contribute to science and it seems rooted in the other perception that someone who believes must be lacking intelligence or a cognitive ability to think critically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric–scientists
[MENTION=62877]AboveAlpha[/MENTION], there's nothing that can make someone believe. Faith is based upon belief and proof eliminates faith. That's the catch-22 that non-believers often cannot get past. Many claim that if they only had proof then they would believe, but then they would believe only because of the proof, which eliminates any possibility of faith.

I can understand somewhat your desire for the answer. Even people who do believe have times of disbelief, questions, wonder, etc. It's normal to challenge faith and each person has to decide if they either do believe or don't believe in a higher being. Fortunately, our lack of proof leaves no right answer, as angry as that makes people who desire to challenge anyone who does believe, followed by insults about stupidity and blindly following things like zombies, ghosts in the sky and the many other terms given to that which is either non-existent or beyond full comprehension.

I'm not offering anything in the way of an argument. I just wanted to throw out there that many people of very deep faith are also scientists and other highly educated people who have determined for themselves, through whatever evidence they could piece together, that something bigger than us does exist. Others have determined that they have found sufficient evidence that it would not be possible, and that's ok too. The only wrong answer is the one we can't live with when we look in the mirror, or that's how I think about it.

 

Do you mean Quantum Particle/Wave Form or Nano Particle as a Nano Particle is usually much larger than one Molecule.

AboveAlpha

 

There are many scientists that have Faith...that is certain....but those who understand things on a Quantum and possibly Quantum Mechanics/Multiversal Connection....are not so lucky.

The more you understand....the more difficult it is to have Faith.

I have Faith in my Team and in myself and my family.

But I have seen far too many senseless deaths and I have been unfortunate enough to have been placed in a situation to kill to understand how random things truly are.

AboveAlpha

 

I'd like to respond to your post one para at a time, if I may.

you say that skeptics who would believe on provision of evidence will obviate faith as a premise for belief. please consider here, that faith is NOT a virtue. in any other meaningful sphere of human endeavour we don't easily believe something without evidence. to do so would be foolish indeed. even if you choose to believe faith is virtuous, what possible purpose can it serve for an omnipotent being? it's utterly illogical in every way that counts - and goes a considerable way to demonstrating that religions are the product of a very human need to convince ignorant peoples to do the will of the overlords (despite no actual evidence that it will do them any good). these dictators managed to re-badge 'faith' as virtuous, and people are still buying into the idea 2000 years later.

your second para refers to the accusations of the following of zombies and sky ghosts. we call it as it is. this is, after all, what your belief asks of you, no?

the last point - the only wrong answer is the one we can't live with when we look in the mirror - is interesting. I take it you mean that your answers are formed by how guilty or comfortable you feel at any given moment? doesn't that tell you something very important about your belief in god/s?

 

I think each person has to find what works best for them. Some choose religion and some choose atheism. It's whatever gives you the fulfillment that you need.

 

I've been through enough baiting regarding belief/non-belief to understand where this is going. I offered perspective, not an attempt to sway anyone's beliefs. AA has already determined for himself that it's not possible to have a higher being, or at least to believe in it. That's what matters, not whether or not someone can convince you or him otherwise. There's no prerogative to do so and the constant round and round about believers being stupid and non-believers being the thought masters on high is as old as time. It just occurs here on a daily basis, thread after thread, with nobody walking away any better off after the discussion.

 

I fully understand and all that matters is if you are at peace within. Living through what you have is tough enough to deal with in its own right.

 

I have not yet determined that there does not exist a Higher Power.....but what I believe I can rule out that this Higher Power is an individual entity....and certainly nothing like any religion has described.

The Gaia Principle is a closer consideration of mine except on a larger scale.

AboveAlpha

 

on the contrary - I've seen quite a few believers come to their senses purely as a result of the relentlessly logical arguments presented by atheist forumers. at least, it opened the door for further investigation. gave them permission to view belief as one option of many, as it were.

 

I am AGNOSTIC as is anyone who religiously follows the scientific method.

This is because the existence of a GOD in whatever form or construct can neither at this time be proven or disproved.

However Organized Religion and Religious Dogma can be completely disproved.

Consider this....there is an extremely fine line between what is alive and what is not. The only difference between the two is Molecular Complexity.

As well....Living Organisms consume Non-Living Organic Material as well as various Non-Living Elemental Nutrients.

So in effect what was living or not living in the past could be living or not living or part of a life form in the future.

Thus the connection between Living and Non-Living.....this is on a Quantum Level.

AboveAlpha

 

I am considerably like you, I want to think something started everything and encompasses a greater meaning. I want to feel a connection to something eternal.

Its a feeling though, and as a person with a strongly dominant thinking personality feelings are something I find easy to disregard.

There is no proof. None. Nada. Zilch. We can speculate all we want about quantum mechanics, but the truth is that there is just no way to really know.

The only thing that comes close is to try to isolate what is most like god to you. It doesn't matter what it is, it just has to be something that is greater than you, that has meaning and importance to you, and gives you a sense of spiritual fulfillment. It needs to be something personal to you that you do not take lightly.

You do not need to call it god.

The other side of religion is spiritual community. A sense of connection with others that transcends normal social barriers. Its really hard to find in the secular world. I think looking for it is a worthy quest, and if successful could be hugely rewarding.

 

I certainly can't speak with certainty or supply any proof. But I'd guess those RC scientists don't buy into the complete dogma and doctrine of the faith. Believing there may be a designer but not necessarily the earth is 6K yrs old, a world wide flood 4500 yrs ago and all of everything wiped out at that time.

 

I think you are misunderstanding me.

Quantum Connectivity is not about the existence of any entity that could be called a GOD.

Quantum Connectivity is a reality that is proven and we know exists that basically allows us to understand that all Matter and Energy are interconnective and the same thing that makes up what is alive also makes up what is not....but what is not alive can eventually be alive or has been in the past and the same for what is alive can also not be alive in the past or future.

AboveAlpha

 

Ok. I guess I'm missing something because I don't see how we need quantum theory to tell us this. Or what it has to do with your OP.

But thats fine. I will shut up.

 

You don't have to shut up....I think I just need to explain it better.

It is sort of like this....you have a pile of bricks and you pick one up and you understand that unto itself it is simply a brick....but if those bricks are arranged in a pattern....they can together become a building that has a use.

Still....that building is just simply individual bricks that are arranged a certain way.

Looking at the bricks on even a smaller level they are made of stone or clay or mud and straw and then heated until strong....but then looking even smaller they are all made up of Molecules and those are made up of Atoms and those are made up of Quantum Particle Wave Forms.

Thus the finished product of a building being used by people is all made up of the same material including the people on a Quantum Level....and Quarks are exchanging in between other quarks within the Protons and Neutrons existing in the bricks and the people in the building.

Thus....everything is connected.

AboveAlpha

 

I come from a long line of 'non-religious' folk,, quite a few generations, although my grandfather (my mum's father) trained to become a priest but 'something' happened in the monastery so he rejected Christianity. This alone is a fascinating story.

When my parents applied for Australian citizenship in the mid 1960s my father had difficulty in filling out the part 'Religion'. We didn't have a religion so he wrote Lutheran as Lutheran is the most common religion in northern Germany. So,,, with a stroke of the pen, we became Lutheran.

Growing up, I can never remember religion ever being a topic of discussion at any time.

 

You CLAIM to be an agnostic, yet you ironically act like a typical ATHEIST around these boards. And do you know how that is? The typical ATHEIST fallacy is this: the atheist believes that God must prove His existence to the atheist, instead of the atheist must prove his existence to God!!!!!!!!!!!! You have it flipped around. This means that in your brain, you believe the universe revolves around YOU. You believe that God revolves around YOU.

Until you realize that YOU revolve around God, then of course nothing will "prove" it to you. Besides, you want science to "prove" God? How?

Define evidence, what is a miracle? Reproduce a miracle in a laboratory. Do you even know what a miracle is? Probably not. Miracles happen, and they've happened throughout history, and the Bible has recorded many. Many times amazing, impossible things happen. And you CANNOT reproduce these miracles in a laboratory. They are unique. A one chance opportunity. If you could reproduce them, then they WOULDN'T BE MIRACLES!!!!!!

If everybody could do what Christ OUR LORD has done, then there wouldn't be need for Him. If miracles were easy, then all the scientists would repeat them.

Let's see YOUR life, how Christ like are you? Have you ever CARED for another human being??? Have you ever sacrificed for another? Yes??? But how does YOUR life compared to our Lord's??? It doesn't compare. That's why YOUR life will not be remembered, but His will, forever. Because Christ is proof of miracles.


Atheists always respond the EXACT SAME WAY EVERYTIME. I've showed how foolish atheists are, around here, yet they keep repeating themselves. How can you claim to be open minded about the possibility of God, when you will NEVER ALLOW any "evidence" for Him? This is hypocrisy and stupidity. You can't say God is possible, yet evidence is impossible. WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?????

Ronstar says that he will believe in Christ when "Christ walks across the Hudson River". What did I say in response? I said, "NO, RONSTAR, YOU FILTHY LIAR AND HYPOCRITE, IF CHRIST DID SUCH A THING THEN YOU WOULD FOLD YOUR ARMS AND DENY IT STILL!!!"

Do you know what Ronstar says now???

He says, "I'll believe in Christ if He walks across the Hudson River AND heals people AND performs other miracles". You see how he changes the goal posts??? You see how he keeps demanding more and more evidence????

This is typical of atheists and other HYPOCRITES. You people keep changing your standard of evidence!!!!!!!! So even if you choose something, and God demonstrates it's easily possible and can be done, then what do you people do??? You demand more. God is never "good enough". And this begins the silly, CHILDISH demands of atheists. God needs to.........save some starving child in a third world country, stop floods and earthquakes, stop wars, intervene, intervene, intervene. God needs to become responsible for humans, because humans CLEARLY choose not to become responsible for themselves!

How dare these atheists?????? God gave YOU Free Will, and this is how you WASTE it??? Humans should become responsible for themselves. KNOW CHRIST, KNOW GOD, SEEK HIM!!!!

Can you follow in His footsteps?????????? NO?????????????? Of course you can't. The better question is, would you ever even want to?

Can you even become responsible for other people??? Can you even care for other people??? Can you even love other people??????????