Tories double charges on migrants using the NHS.

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by cerberus, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Migrants to Britain will pay the double the current amount up-front for using the NHS, the government has announced. The immigration health surcharge will be hiked later this year from £200 to £400 a year, or £150 to £300 for international students."

    Another bit of ridiculous governmental 'We're on the case' spin, because there's no way it can be enforced: as is the case right now (it's known as 'health tourism') anyone can just turn up to any A&E with a serious condition, the surgery and convalescence will happen without question, the 'patient' then refuses to pay up/pleads poverty, then just ****s off home to wherever it is they came from. :rolleyes: There's no doubt that the UK has lost the plot big-time.
     
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  2. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    In another thread you mentioned that we need less administrators and bureaucrats...I would argue that we need more in order to acertain the levels of treatment that can be provided prior to payment, quantify how much the treatment costs based on the level of care required and the physical act of recovering the amount of money owned. I know we keep hearing that doctors should be in charge of the NHS and all that bollocks but for me the worst people that you could have are those who are morally obliged to do everything in their power to undertake the task. Ultimately its a cost benefit thing. A doctor's oath is to do everything in his/her power to assist but a bureaucrat will ask the questions and apply a sense of perspective.

    At the moment there is no clear idea just how much treatments cost as little or no data is kept and analysed. If there is insufficient "back-office" staff to maintain the data, anaylyse the costs and recover the debts then how is this going to work?
     
  3. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not so dim as to assert that admin isn't necessary in the NHS, of course it is, just like any other organisation; it's more a question of how many bureaucrats are enough, and how many are too many? But we all know how bureaucrats like to extend their numbers, don't we? It's called 'empire-building', and senior members of the brotherhood are good at it because it's a good way to increase salaries. 'Everybody up one!'
     
  4. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The immigration health surcharge is paid as part of the immigration process so isn’t especially hard to enforce (for those correctly going through the legal process). Part of the reason for having it is to get some money without the difficulty of getting payment for individual episodes of care under the NHS.

    It’s not entirely without question these days but there are practical limits to what healthcare providers can actually do, especially in true emergency situations. It’s a messy situation but nobody have come up with a viable solution which isn’t illegal, immoral or puts innocent people’s lives at risk.

    Oh, and don’t feel obliged to respond if it’s going to frustrate or anger you, I’m just throwing points out for anyone who cares to pick them up. :)
     
  5. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL It's feeding time now, then walkies - I'll reply dayside (as we used to call 'tomorrow' in Fleet Street!)
     
  6. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    I find it interesting that the "private" sector parking companies employed at NHS hospitals are pretty vociferous when it comes to tracking down and extracting cash from offenders...:)
     
  7. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    that depends upon how efficient you want the service to be....do you remember the yes prime minister sketch..... a hospital fully staffed by admin with no patients topped the efficiency ratings...;)
     
  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And if everyone was willing to have their citizenship licensed, registered and a number plate bolted to their forehead, a similar system could be applied to healthcare costs too. :cool:
     
  9. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ...they already do its under PDS when you register with your doctor you enter the NHS "Spine"

    My wife just mentioned that NHS Digital has data entry in the PDS record that showns a heading in the Summary Care Record Application for overseas visitor managers and NHS staff. The new field links to visa information from the Home Office and shows whether someone is chargeable or entitled to free treatment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There’s no reason to assume that’s accurate though and there’s no physical link to the individual. My point was that parking enforcement only works (mostly) because they can use number plates to identify the registered owner of the vehicle. We don’t have the same system in place for people (especially non-citizens) so the same kind of enforcement of medical costs can’t be applied.
     
  11. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Why if you have a doctor you have provided an NHS number and a NI number, name address etc....if you're taking about criminal intent, identity theft or fraud then yes there is always that problem.
     
  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not everyone is registered with a GP though and people can opt out of having an SCR completely. It’s also not always possible to definitively identify a patient, especially in emergency care of mental health. Anyway, recovery is general needed from people living in other countries so even when they do have correct details, the NHS is still limited in its ability to get any money from them after the fact. One of the key issues with expecting hospitals to deal with this themselves is that they have literally no powers to either require people to provide valid details or pay for treatment already received and they’re explicitly prohibited from refusing to provide emergency and live-saving treatment at all.

    As I said, nobody has come up with a legal, moral and safe alternative, hence measures like the one linked in the OP.
     
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  13. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's something I would bet on, and at any odds - that whereas nursing staff have to pay for their car parking (including the extra hours they might have to work as overtime), higher-echelon NHS jobsworths on vast salaries and company cars, er, don't!
     
  14. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As I understand it, the measure only applies where an immigrant is going to stay here for more than 6 months, and here's the difference between them and 'health tourists': I recently watched a doco about St. Mary's in Paddington, and it touched on this subject. As an exemplar, a Nigerian woman had been admitted to give birth to (I think I'm right in remembering) 3 babies who were premature and needed round-the-clock monitoring in separate incubators at an unbelievable cost for every one of them. The woman .. . Well whaddya know, on a hunch I just Googled it and got a result, so you can continue my narrative above by reading this . . .

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38809530

    I trust that my point is made, viz. she wasn't nor had any intention of staying here for 6 months, and ipso facto making her the perfect example of a health tourist?

    I'm not sure where you're coming from with that paragraph so will make no comment.
     
  15. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Clearly NHS is racist.
     
  16. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, just on the brink of meltdown. Despite all the faux indignation and dissembling from the hypocritical politicos (who will never use the NHS anyway!!), and the contrived anti-Trump spin, Donald Trump is dead right - it is 'broken'. I mean, what does a government do when its target waiting times in A&E departments are constantly exceeded? Why it's so simple - that government scraps target waiting times??? Sorted!

    I could be sardonic here except that my own sister, who had been prioritised because she was having chemotherapy, had to wait for just over 4 hours in the local A&E because . . . and nobody will believe it . . . there had been 2 emergency admissions of the blooded results of street or pub fighting (obviously I don't know the circumstances, but when blood is being lost it is made a priority) AND, during that wait, a door from another part of the hospital burst open, and some drunk ran into the waiting room, and was dodging the police/hospital security by running up and down, in and out, of the lines of chairs. So at this rate, Hunt's sarcastic and puerile remark about nobody 'wants to live in a system where 28m people have no cover.' is going to backfire on the fool, because if the NHS goes under we'll have 65.64 million Brits in exactly the same situation. Jesus christ you couldn't make up this ****!

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-system-uk-trumpcare-obamacare-a8195196.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  17. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, they’re taking money from the soft target because the hard target is too difficult because the former can be enforced.

    That case is actually more complex than many. She’d flown to the US with the intention of giving birth there, supported by family in the US, but had some kind of issues with the paperwork. She was flying back to Nigeria via a standard transfer in London when she fell ill and, like any critically ill passenger on a plane coming in to the UK, was given emergency treatment. There are all sorts of issues and questions over the case but it isn’t a simple case of health tourism (at least not to the UK). It is still representative of some of the issues though.

    You said the UK has lost the plot which suggests you have ideas of how we could improve the situation. I’m not convinced there is such a way that is legal, moral and practical (why wouldn’t we already do it if there was?) but I’m open to be convinced as always.
     
  18. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your second para: yes we know all that - all she had to do was keep on the move to or from the UK until her condition warranted some urgent attention, then get off the plane at Heathrow. I can't be bothered splitting hairs with you any more on this, so forget it. WTF do I bother!
     
  19. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That idea came entirely from your own warped imagination. There’s absolutely zero evidence she had any intention to do anything like that. The specifics of that case are a side issue anyway, you’ve still not made any effort to offer new ideas to address the issues of health tourism. If all you’re interested in is moaning about it, WTF do you bother?
     
  20. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Alight then, I will. The NHS should refuse to treat anyone who can't present ID, including a NI number. That is the only way to stop it - unless you can come up with another one. As for 'There’s absolutely zero evidence she had any intention to do anything like that.' Well there wouldn't be would there, unless she fessed up to it. What a stupid bloody thing to say! :roll: :wall: Also, your 'it's a side issue anyway' is proof positive to me that you really don't like losing an argument. Which in a way, and despite your goody-two-shoes monicker, makes you something of a bigot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  21. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Even for life-saving emergency care? Plenty of patients brought in to A&E will have no ID on them. And does that mean that Nigerian woman (and her unborn children) should have been left to die on the curb?

    Even for non-emergency care, it isn’t a flawless system because there are UK citizens who won’t have acceptable forms of ID and there’s the resource aspect for the hospitals to have the staff with the training required to identify the valid ID. It isn’t a completely lost cause and there are recent pilots at some hospitals doing exactly this (GPs have been effectively doing it for a long time) but we need to be honest about the costs, risks and limitations.

    Guilty until proven innocent then?
     
  22. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obviously, unless she can prove her innocence. But I doubt the BBC would have devoted an hour of this subject if it wasn't a matter of great concern. You obsessed do-gooders should really wake up to the fact that we don't live in a perfect world, nor ever will. That's life - get used to it!
     
  23. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your posts are ample evidence that the world isn’t perfect. Maybe I should focus on the better ones.
     
  24. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    At the moment, only wealthy migrants can stay in the UK, regarding people from outside the European Economic Area (EEA). £400 per year is a reasonable amount for them to contribute to the NHS. £200 per year was a bargain.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  25. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do that! If I never have to read any more of yours I won't complain!! :)
     

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