Trump’s comments about NFL, NBA’s Stephen Curry invoke strong responses from players, owners

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Can you imagine being a POW? The relentless stress and fear, the physical and mental effects of torture, the knowledge you might die there.... I think AFM had it exactly right- there is no moral failing in buckling under that pressure. If you're really disagreeing with that then to me that's a failure of the imagination. But maybe I misunderstand you.

As to the specific questions:

1 I honestly don't know, except refusing to go home earlier than the others seems pretty heroic.
2 Isn't it right there in the passage? He felt ashamed for having been broken.

 

Ok, so your position is that Russia did nothing. They did absolutely nothing to influence Americans to vote for Trump. Is that what you're saying?

 

(sigh)
Ok, let's take these one at a time. "disrespect the flag and what it represents" What does it represent....to you?

 

I'm not sure where your head is buried, nor do I really want to know, if you think there is no discussion of North Korea.
He has the equivalent of the Berlin Airlift in progress in PR. You really have to stop eagerly swallowing all the bull **** the Fake News Media spoon feeds you.
Russian Collusion is bullshit. You know it, I know it, the American Electorate knows it.
Healthcare failed because we have Senate majority in Name Only, that has been clarified.
Tax Reform is the topic of discussion, you really need some new news sources, or better yet, look things yourself. Here is a link to get you started:
https://www.google.com/search?q=tru...2.69i57j0l5.8603j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

You always see Nazis and think you are holding 11.

 

Actually that's the first time I've ever made any reference to anyone being a Nazi but not surprised you would jump to that conclusion.
In dealing with you I pretty much have the winning hand. As an example, your answer to post #600 was lacking in any kind of thought at all and then you doubled down on your lack of any kind of position by making a straw man argument in #620.

 

You think the winning argument is openly opposing freedom of speech? Lol, what? Good God, man.

 

Everyone knows that buckling under torture is not immoral - so why does McCain admit he felt shame? What specifically did he give up to the enemy that made him feel shame?

If he had used his privileged status to get out early he would have been disgraced and any future in the military or politics would have been finished. Early release was not an option for an ambitious man like McCain.

 

Even the people who started the Russia collusion political attack have admitted it was all just BS.

“The latest official to throw cold water on the MSNBC-led circus is President Obama’s former acting CIA chief Michael Morell. What makes him particularly notable in this context is that Morell was one of Clinton’s most vocal CIA surrogates. In August, he not only endorsed Clinton in the pages of the New York Times but also became the first high official to explicitly accuse Trump of disloyalty, claiming, “In the intelligence business, we would say that Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation.”

But on Wednesday night, Morell appeared at an intelligence community forum to “cast doubt” on “allegations that members of the Trump campaign colluded with Russia.” “On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire at all,” he said, adding, “There’s no little campfire, there’s no little candle, there’s no spark. And there’s a lot of people looking for it.” THE INTERCEPT, Key Democratic Officials Now Warning Base Not to Expect Evidence of Trump/Russia Collusion, Glenn Greenwald, March 16 2017.
https://theintercept.com/2017/03/16...-to-expect-evidence-of-trumprussia-collusion/

Or do you think Morell and Glenn Greenwald are just Russian agents?

 

You think people behave and feel rationally after they've been tortured?? Look, it's common that women report feeling (among many other things) persistent shame and worthlessness after they've been raped. Humans generally aren't mentally and emotionally equipped to cope with profound trauma; we can easily react to it in any number of irrational ways. So it seemed clear to me reading the passage that the shame McCain mentions came out of the experience of being broken; at least, that's what he seems to be implying.

Wow, you're really down on McCain aren't you? If I were in his position, and thought of the calculation you just proposed, I would 100% take the early release: that way I'd know at least I'd survive the experience. I doubt I'll do anything as heroic as that in my whole life, and I can't fathom how you dismiss it as career calculation. Maybe you're annoyed he voted against the healthcare bill and so now everything about him has to be rubbished? Regardless, your lack of basic human sympathy for what McCain must have gone through as a POW is surprising, to say the least.

 

That is not responsive to my post. I gave him a pass on breaking under torture. Why ignore that?

Again, what did McCain do for the enemy when he "broke"? Why don't we know?

Do you really want to compare McCain to a female rape victim?

 

If you mean why am I saying you seem to lack sympathy, it's particularly that you give him no credit for staying as a POW when he could have left. I just don't understand how anyone could not see that as heroic. Seriously, could you have made that decision?

I suspect that at first reading you didn't connect his shame with being broken, and therefore assumed he meant that he was ashamed of something he said or did. I think that misunderstands the passage. In any case, there is no evidence I'm aware of that McCain did anything for the enemy.

Absolutely - the link is the deeply traumatic nature of the experiences.

 

1. I doubt that any officer would take an early out leaving others behind and generating a propaganda victory for the enemy. His refusal leave was the honorable thing to do. It was not "heroic" IMO.

2. No rational human being would feel guilt or shame over being broken by torture. No one who has gone through SEER would have any illusions.

3. McCain should have detailed the reasons for his feelings of guilt and shame. Specifically how far did his cooperation with the enemy go? He was a candidate for President.

 

You might be right, and I'll give you honourable instead of heroic. That's a far cry from claiming he stayed for fear of damaging his career. If you said that to his face, you could expect to get punched IMO. It's very insulting.

Yes, if people were truly rational then you might be right. But we're not: we're all irrational to some degree. Falling in love is not rational. Stage fright isn't rational. Cycles of addiction aren't rational. Reflexively saying "sorry" when someone else bumps into you isn't rational (you might have to be British to understand that one!). Believing politicians' promises isn't rational, if history dictates. Sitting watching TV for hours when you are already late submitting an essay isn't rational. I could write you a 1000 more examples. And whatever degree of irrationality we have, you can multiply that by many orders of magnitude under severe stress. People can lose their minds through torture. I don't know what SEER is, but if you think a training programme (?) can insulate people from the effects of torture, I'd suggest that's extremely naive. You get a flavour of how torture can affect people in this article, if you're interested (it references a CIA programme, but that has nothing to do with my point). https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...ssness-enduring-effects-torture-haunt-victims

HE DID. You just can't make the connection between the experience of being broken, and the shame which can arise from that. That's your problem, not his. And for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and he secretly collaborated. You really think he's going to allude to it in this way and risk blowing the secret wide open? Come on. Let me suggest that is something no rational human being would do.

 

Anyone who has experienced an escape and evasion training program with an POW camp with experienced cadre knows that everyone will break under intelligent coercive interrogation. SEER uses waterboarding to drive home the point. McCain would have been through something like SEER. He would not have been ashamed of breaking under torture. McCain almost certainly broke during training.

Few human beings are as demonstrably ambitious as our veteran DC politicians.

 

Kneeling as psychodrama therapy for the rich, black, and guilty

What better psychodramatic direction than for black celebrities to kneel down before some imaginary slave master instead of honoring the flag?

 

How on earth do you know how he responded to torture? You make this assumption and use it to conclude he may well have collaborated with the enemy. That actually makes me angry. The man deserves respect for what he went through. Did you read the article? Even the first 3 paragraphs are enough to give you an idea.

Yes, so ambitious he'd rather stay with his men and risk dying than damage his career prospects. That is a morally grotesque accusation, and you'd better have some pretty substantial evidence if you're going to make it.

 

How human beings respond to torture is well known. They break. Google SEER.

 

Um, yes? How have I disagreed with that?

 

I googled SEER but nothing relevant comes up in the 1st 2 pages.

 

McCain would have known that he would break under torture long before he was captured. He knew it was nothing to be ashamed of. His story rings false.

 

It rings true to me. But I'm done now. That article might help you understand what I'm trying to explain in terms of how irrationally people can respond to torture. And there's an excellent book on trauma in general called The Body Keeps The Score. Beyond that, good luck.

 

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