Trump administration to expel Chinese graduate students linked to China’s military schools

when you said national security is that include study in university? cause last time i check thats NOT national security, most professor in engineering school are from asia anyway. its grad school, the knowledge is already out there. PPL can just goto EU or other place to study. we are not talking about R&D in sensitive field. heck you can buy Grad school book from ebay/ amazon.

 

What minor measures the US is taking against Chinese students, it took much more severe measures than that against Iranian ones. And not just the US: in many European countries, Iranian students aren't even allowed to study certain subjects. In the meantime, increasingly, not just in any sensitive fields, but across the board, even academic journals are pressured by US threats and sanctions not to have any collaboration with Iranian academics and scientists.

What have these measures earned the US? Nothing. In fact, these kind of measures (as they become more prevalent and customary) will eventually help break America's hegemony in this area too, since much of that hegemony is built these days on the strength of 'foreign' nationals and immigrants. Drying up the source of much of the student body, faculty, and collaboration, in many different disciplines will eventually see the list of the top universities in the world, which today is dominated by American universities, have no representatives from America at all. Instead, the list will come from places which don't discriminate against people based on which country they come from, but only on the bases of their academic merit.

In the meantime, closing off America to nationals from countries not so favored by American politics will certainly also affect places outside of just academia. This was an article from a couple of years ago when Trump was instituting his "Muslim ban" (in reality, a ban on mostly Iranian visitors and such, as most of the "Muslim" countries were exempt from it and only or mainly Iran and its friends and allies on the list). It focused on the Silicon valley -- and Iranian-Americans who played a prominent role there.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9024538...nd-37-other-iranians-who-power-silicon-valley
Dara Khosrowshahi and 39 other Iranians who power Silicon Valley
Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is just one of dozens of execs and investors who’ve shaped the tech industry, from Airbnb to Google to Y Combinator.

This is a very long alphabetical list. I will give you the list mostly from A-G (and some of the Ts) and you can see the rest of the list yourself if you want:

 

It's about time. We need to get Communist Chinese Party money out of our economy, out of our universities and out of our government. If you dig deeper into the US politicians who support China and blame the Wuhan flu on Trump, to a person they accept large stipends from Paul Weiss who is deeply tied to China. Chris Murphy was paid $151,000 for his support for the Chinese Communist Party and opposition to the US Administration. China owns Biden. This has got to stop.

 

You're doing the same thing that @s002wjh did earlier in this thread, which is conflate immigrants with nationals. A "second-generation Iranian-American" is an American, and doesnt have any sort of higher education restrictions. An Iranian national of course does. I Don't want Iranian nationals studying high energy physics in US universities so I support the current rules on that. I just wish to extend those rules to Chinese nationals.

 

The national security part is information these students are sending back to the CCP.

 

1- Not all of them are 2nd generation Iranian Americans. Many of them are immigrants born and raised in Iran. In fact, if you look beyond the CEO's and founders of major high tech companies and such, the Iranians who work there are mainly immigrants born in Iran. But even on that list, you will see most aren't born in the US. Lets take the first name on the list, Salar Kamangar, former CEO of Google's Youtube, who was born in Iran. Or take the Khosroshahi brothers, who include Dara Khosroshahi, the present CEO of Uber: he was born in Iran. Or Omid Kurdestani, the executive chairman of Twitter: he was born in Iran. And while these are mainly long time immigrants, and include many who are 2nd generation Americans and such, there are many names holding lesser executive positions in these companies who are people who arrived in the US much later. And if you go beyond executive positions, the engineers, scientists, and researchers in many of these companies are basically recent arrivals.

2- My main point on this specific issue in this thread was the one I had underlined: academic institutions which discriminate on the basis of where someone is born, particularly when that discrimination will deny them some of the top winners of in academic olympiads born outside of the US, will eventually suffer and will not be able to count themselves remaining in the position they are now.

Since you mention "high physics', for instance, just look carefully at the video below by going to how things look these days and then and ask yourself: can a university degree program in physics remain 'elite' if the top academic students who are winning gold medals in physics Olympiads are barred from entering their university? The best universities will be the ones that draw the best students and, whether you like it or not, the best students in the sciences specially, are today often born outside of the US. Especially in places like China, Russia and Iran.

 

I went to the first name on your list, Salar Kamangar, and checked his bio. "He was born in Tehran in 1977, and after the Iranian revolution in 1979, his family went to America."

So he came to the US as child. So again, we're talking about an immigrant, not an Iranian national. I'm not going to bother to check your other names because it's clear you still cannot discern the difference between laws preventing Iranian nationals from coming to the US to study, and zero laws having to do with green card residents and first generation US citizens. So in other words, the US is not dependent on Iranian nationals for high achieving students.

So I would say, don't worry about US Universities, they'll be just fine (or not fine, but for reasons having nothing to do with Iranians). High achieving Iranian students can study almost everywhere else in the world. Whatever happened to good old Moscow U? I'm sure they have a regular program importing Iranian students. And I imagine all of Europe is still open. Iranian students will be fine without the US and the US will be fine without them.

 

I already said that the list of people holding high executive positions are mostly long time immigrants. So you didn't discover anything I hadn't told you already. Below them, however, are many who are more recent arrivals.

How about those who came to the US as students, such as this women who died too early:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/15/us/mirzakhani-obituary-first-woman-win-math-prize/index.html
Maryam Mirzakhani, only woman to take math's highest award, dies at 40

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani

I can give you plenty of other examples if you like.

I am not worried about American universities, but made an observation of the consequences of these kind of measures that are applied to Iranians, now beginning to be applied to Chinese students and tomorrow others. So it is not just Iranians, but even alone, American universities would be missing out on a lot. With regard to Chinese students, they will miss out on the country whose kids earn the most medals in math and sciences. With regard to Iran, they will miss out on a country that places among the top 10-15 in these fields. A country that alone has the same number of gold medals (45) in mathematics, for instance, than all of India and Pakistan, all of the Middle East (Israel and Turkey included) combined.
You can find the underlying statistics here below:
https://imo-official.org/results_country.aspx

Or watch this video similar to the one I posted for physics, but for math.

I actually prefer that most of these Iranian students continue their studies in Iran. But what I prefer for my own reasons is not really the issue I was addressing. My point was partly to counter the dismissive attitude you exhibit in your final sentence. And to make the point, as a dispassionate observation, of the consequence of these measures: that the best universities in the world cannot and will not remain the best if they don't allow the best students in the world to attend them.

 

Well if you prefer Iranian students study in Iran, and I prefer they study anywhere else but the US, it seems we're mostly in agreement that we don't want Iranians studying in the US. Why you still want Chinese nationals to study in the US seems a mystery to me, but maybe Iran can take advantage and poach those Chinese students for their own universities. Sounds like a win/win for everyone.

 

I have a basis for my preference, which isn't relevant to this thread. Your preference, on the other hand, is based on an assumption that America will be 'fine' without these students. And I have been trying to let you know that your assumption is misinformed. Some of the brightest kids in math, engineering and the sciences are from China and Iran. I gave you the example of one of them from Iran: Mayram Mirzakhani, a former math Olympiad winner from Iran, who came to the US on a student visa to get her Ph.D., stayed to teach at Stanford, and became the first woman ever to win the mathematics equivalent of the Nobel prize.

And you haven't addressed my point: how can the universities that today are ranked as the best in the world retain that ranking when they close their doors to many of the very best and brightest kids in engineering, math and sciences? Never mind all the professors, researchers, engineers and others that the US will miss losing these people.

 

I'm not sure why you keep harping on Mayram Mirzakhani, other than national pride. I get it, I've heard of her before; in math circles she was famous. But as to your question, if US Universities are totally dependent on Chinese and Iranian students to maintain world class status, maybe they are not world class universities? Wouldn't Iran (and China) benefit by keeping those students?

 

I would call this a brain drain!!!Dirty Donald hates smart people.

 

I am proud of her accomplishment, but I mention it for the reason that is directly on the point you had raised, where you tried to distinguish between immigrants and students. She is one of 2 Iranians to have won the Fields Award and an example of the kind of academic Olympiad winners from Iran alone (and there have been 45 gold medalists and many more medalists winning silver and bronze just in math and many many more in other fields and more still that will be winning their medals in the future) that came to the US as a student which you want to bar from coming to the US. And she is not the only one for sure, even is she might be the best example in many ways.

The best American universities have drawn from the best and brightest in different fields, which has allowed them to keep their status and reputation as among the best in the world. While the best and brightest used to be primarily from different countries, and not from either China or Iran, as I tried to show you in the videos I posted, the past couple of decades has seen a significant change in that regard. Right now, in almost all scientific fields, the most medals are being won by Chinese students, while Iranian students are also among the best as well. To say universities in the US are 'totally dependent' on any particular country would be false and in the nature of straw man, but the importance of depriving them of such a huge number of the best and brightest due to artificially imposed restrictions, will of course matter. And it will matter in a host of fields besides mathematics: in medicine, engineering, the sciences across the board (physics, chemistry etc) and others.

Let me explain it this way, through an analogy which might work with you: imagine a top NFL team gets into a dispute of some sort with Ohio St. (China) and Oklahoma (Iran) and decides that it will not recruit players from those colleges again. While that will not 'totally' deprive it of the chance to remain a top team, over time, losing the option of recruiting players from colleges that produce some of the top draft choices (especially where, unlike the NFL, there is no system to give the top draft choices to other universities to even the playing field), will certainly be expected to affect that NFL team.

For the most part, yes, which is why my preference has merit. I am suggesting your's doesn't.

 

That's an odd position to take. We both want Iranian students to stay home, but it's wrong when I want that, and fine when you want it? That seems odd.

Anyway, Iran has a population of...what 81 million? In a world of 7 billion plus, that seems a drop in the bucket and it's one that American Universities can easily weather. If we both want Iranian students to not come to the US, I see no reason to be having an argument. We're mostly in agreement in the broad strokes, so why don't we enjoy the win of agreeing with each other?

 

Because we aren't making public policy on this forum! Otherwise, I would keep my mouth shut or even encourage the US to take an even more hostile approach to China. That is the best service the US can do for Iran! China, like an addict that wants to quit the addiction but can't quite do so, needs to be pushed to get over its dependence on the US dominated global economic system. A dependence that causes China to effectively even carry out US policies against Iran, including in dramatically reducing its purchases of Iranian oil. And in many other ways.

But while we aren't making public policy on this forum, hopefully we can use this forum to properly educate and enlighten one another about different issues and different countries. That is my main interest.

In the meantime, population is not the only thing that matters in producing the best and brightest kids for American universities to draw from. Brazil plus the entire South American continent dwarf Iran in terms of population. But combined, they don't have the same number of gold medalists in academic Olympiads as Iran alone. Even if you add Mexico (which by itself has a bigger population than Iran) to the mix. The same with India and many other countries with more population than Iran. In fact, as I said, take all the gold medal winners from India, plus Pakistan, plus all the countries in the Middle East (including Turkey and Israel), and add the zero from all of Africa (including populous countries like Nigeria), and you will end up with 45 gold medals in math (which is the subject I did the math on -- no pun intended) for all of them combined. Which is the number of medals from Iran alone.

 

So...Iran is an exceptional country in many metrics. Got it. Just more proof that it doesn't need to send their students to the US, and the US doesn't need to import Iranian students.

As I said, it's a win/win.

 

Pff... is a lame personal attack all that you can mutter? lol

 

As long as Iran and the US are locked in their current state of relations, more hostile relations between the US and China is definitely a win for Iran. If it is a win for the US as well, that is fine with me.

BUT: the hostile posture the US takes against Iran is mainly a lose-lose equation for both Iran and the US. Those policies create conditions, including employment prospects and such, that make many of these young Iranians nonetheless move elsewhere. If not the US, to some other country. That is no win for Iran. And it is not a win for the US either, no matter how you like to spin it.

As for Iran being 'exceptional', it actually is quite exceptional in many ways. It was exceptional in those ways even when it wasn't winning the medals and achieving the things I have outlined for you here and it is even more exceptional now. But the reason for it being exceptional, isn't found in the easy answers that became popular in certain places because they happened to have gained the upper hand for a short time relative to others. The reasons why nations, and even civilizations, experience their ups and downs, are more complicated. And if there are 2 countries in the world that know that well, those would be China and Iran (once called Persia in the West). These are two ancient civilizations whose histories trace the ups and downs in the history of mankind.

 

this posture is not a lose lose, when iran adopts the petrodollar iranian and American people will both have a better economy from oil.

the only way for iran to adopt the petrodollar is by a ground invasion of US military forces into iran's sovereignty.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-a-petrodollar-3306358

 

You pretend to be unaware that people suddenly bashing China in the presence of ethnic Chinese is not a fluke, but deliberate way of nazi's to vent their racism in a not so covert way.

 

lol do you even understand whats consider national security, next thing you know chinese kids goto high school here is national security. what they sending calculus homework back to CCP lol

 

what rule? if its sensitive research sure. but do you know everything you learn from grad school, you can learn from online or any other university. its like saying some foreign kids goto high school is national security, what a dumb argument. have you look how many foreign born professor in engineer school? go check it out. there is difference between paranoia and what really consider as national security.

 

US-Iran relations are outside the scope of this thread, but I'm happy to hear that Iran will not suffer from not sending their students to the US.

 

Then stop confusing someone who's ethnically Chinese for a Chinese national. I'll help by supporting the reduction of Chinese nationals in the US.

 

Then those Chinese students will be just fine. They can use Khan Academy back in China.