https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...ade-talks-with-trump-corbyn-2019-11?r=US&IR=T Way back when Trump let slip that trade deals with Britain would include the NHS, whether that be higher drug prices or privatisation of the NHS hospitals was unclear. It was something he backed away from when confronted by angry Brits but apparently the threat remains particularly from Big pharma who would like nothing better than to break the single buyer monopolies that countries like Britain, Australia and Canada have
I don't believe this, I think it's all fluff. Just scaremongering. Why would the NHS be up on the table in any trade deal?
I think the Labour rhetoric on this is hugely dishonest (though that doesn’t mean it won’t work). The idea of “NHS for sale” is clearly designed to create a particular impression which is a world away from the real concerns that exist. Drug pricing and patents actually seems to be the only aspect that has concrete information behind it and that isn’t even directly linked to the NHS, though it could have a significant impact.
There was a Dispatches program recently which strongly indicated what was going to happen was as Corbyn is saying. I highly doubt Corbyn is being dishonest. Unlike most politicians it is not his style but dream on.
This is true. Trump has made clear this is what he intends on doing and a recent Dispatches program here indicated that is how talks have been going. Shortly after that program Boris and Trump were together apparently talking trade talks and Boris said 'but not the NHS' and Trump grinned snugly and turned his head - I read it as him thinking 'I know that's your line. I also know it is not true'. To some extent it will depend on how much we are in need of the US. No deal and we lose everything for instance. The hard Right Tories are in Brexit for self gain and the entire thing is full of skulduggery - for instance Arron Banks funding the Brexit Party to get rid of May and throwing money at it to be able to stand at the election...but when he has the man he wants in, Boris he then first tells Farage not to stand, then to give up on half the seats and I do not know. Farage was just to push the Tories to the right till what was wanted was there. These are the people Paul Mason describe as (as far as others are concerned) being in a race to the bottom. Their only interest is self gain. They know as everyone else in power knows that the neo liberal economic system has been dead since 2008 and that we are in an extreme climate emergency. Our past way of life is over. They are just trying to grab a little more for themselves while there is still time.
What is Corbyn actually saying though? "The NHS is for sale" doesn't mean anything without context. I've not heard anything specific about what they're predicting would happen beyond the issue of drug pricing, which is nothing new.
Labor has been telling people the Conservatives are going to privatise the NHS every election, trying to scare voters to drum up more support. Mostly a political tactic. Who knows, there could be some tiny grain of political truth to it, Conservatives might push to get rid of it someday. But it's not likely to happen any time soon. There's not really any big impetus that exists in the Conservative ranks to get rid of it or change things. If there is anything that threatens the NHS in the long-term, it's the huge amount of immigration the UK has taken in. It's added a huge amount of poverty, straining NHS services, and created more division in society. The population not on the Left may come to resent it someday and want to move towards privatization, segregating themselves economically from "us and them" trying to cut ties with the problems and poverty that exist around them. When resources start becoming scarce and rationing taking place, there is an innate human tendency to individually grab as much as they can and not want to share. I think this may be something the Left does not give any consideration to, and just assumes they can overcome it because that type of thinking is outside their ideology. But it is ultimately to their own detriment to ignore inherent human nature, because that is what decides what will happen in the future. If you want an example of this, you can easily look to Mexico.
It is no secret that Trump wants to open up the price controlled pharma market in Europe for US Big Pharma. The UK wants a trade deal with the US, it will be the price it has to pay. Don't you love Brexit?
Yes Trump is widely known for his admiration of socialist health care policies. He also bought the rights to Obamacare I hear. It's amazing how people fall for this stuff.
What is socialist in those European systems ? People pay a tax for them. What Trump hates that they have installed price control, which deprives US Big Pharma of the insane profits.
To those people, everything non-american and everything non-conservative american is socialist. They can't look at details and spot differences, they don't know and don't understand that health care systems throughout Europe differ considerably, to them it's all one gigantic socialist hell. Too ill-informed, too lazy, or maybe too dumb. It's up to the Brits to decide what happens to their NHS. I for one wouldn't trust someone who lies as much as Trump does at all. What's strange is that Johnson already promised that after Brexit billions would be invested into the UK's economy, education system, security, infrastructure, etc., but didn't mention where that money would come from.
He probably will do it as Trump does, get that credit card out. I would say to dumb, or is it trump, I always forget.
Well the NHS England has been for sale in bits and pieces since Blair and I do not have the ins and outs of it. I am not sure if this is the case also in Scotland now. It wasn't at the 2014 Indy vote and was one reason given for Independence. Now however the situation is much more precarious especially if the UK is going to be dependent on the US for a trade deal which up until now has seemed exceedingly likely. Other countries do not pay as much as people in the US pay for US made medicines. Their prices are extortionate. The US has the worse healthcare of the developed world. Now Trump is going about getting medical care for his voters removed and he very much wants his chums, the Corporate pharma producers to be able to start getting the same money from other countries. This of course will reduce the medical care people in those countries get - and with us this is a massive one. The Despatches program wanted to investigate this as it pretty much knew something was going on but also was very aware that any detail of this was being kept from the British Public. It became clear in that program that if we want a trade deal with the US and are weak as we will be then one area where the US intends on making a killing is over the price of drugs. They would become 3 or 4 times as expensive basically cutting what the NHS can provide by near enough that. Corbyn has got hold of the minutes of those meetings which is proof that what Johnson is saying is not true. They were apparently on line for a while. I also heard the Tories were not denying he has those files but are simply trying to present this as some sort of Russiangate. Things are beyond crazy in out politics are the moment. All morality is out the window.
How can you make such a definitive statement if you don't know "the ins and outs"? And how can it suddenly be a new slogan if it's a long running issue? Again, I'm not saying there aren't problems in the NHS, I am questioning people leaping on simplistic slogans (regardless of who says them) that don't actually mean anything. Labour are trying to create the image that this is a Conservative problem and voting them out magically solves it but even with the Labour policy we could still have Brexit and therefore have to negotiate a trade agreement with the USA. If you're not capable of actually explaining what political slogans actually mean, allowing them to influence your vote would be ridiculous. Using them to convince other people to influence their vote would be even worse.
are you trying to tell me you are unaware of NHS England selling out their services to private companies - that is privatisation. what slogan. The situation of a Trade Deal with the US makes it a much more dramatic situation. I have already heard talks of deals where the US is wanting in with NHS England demanding it's capitalists be paid money if they do not get what they want. Everyone has only so many things they can turn their attention to to do in depth investigation but the reality that that is going on goes with the long standing complaint about NHS England being sold. Most of what I heard about this I heard during the Indyref so some time ago. The idea of a medicine which is currently supplied to a British person for £80 a month becoming £320 a month or something which was costing £10,000 a month now consisting £40,000 is month means if that happens and a No Deal that happens and you can goodbye to NHS England. The fact that you are too lazy to look anything up and just like to be snarkey is the reason you are getting it. People get the Governments they deserve. England has been keeping Scotland down for too many years by people with your attitude. Enjoy destroying your country because you apparently are unable to do any research and prefer to support the destruction of your country by the super rich. Thankfully I will have other alternatives.
Save the Health Service. Get Johnson gone. I was going to vote for the Greens till the Tories sent me a letter telling me I had to vote for them or the SNP would get in so now I have to vote for the SNP. Tactical voting is the way to save the health service. Find out how you can do it at link. https://getjohnsongone.com/
The NHS contracts services from private companies but it’s been doing that for decades (I work for such a company). Even GPs are technically private contractors selling services to the NHS. There has long been all sorts of private involvement within the NHS at all sorts of levels and scales. There are valid questions about some elements of that but dismissing the whole as “privatisation” is just more empty sloganizing. ”NHS For Sale!”. It’s no better (or worse) than “Get Brexit Done!”. How any future trade deal with the US is handled will be vital for countless different reasons. Healthcare is far from the only element each side will be pushing on and, assuming it happens at all, there will be all sorts of different agreements, compromises and balances. Of course, the same applies in th ongoing agreements between the US and the EU and in general in healthcare where there are already all sorts of political, economic and social pressures on things like drug pricing. It’s one huge complex mess but election campaigning requires simple pithy slogans which is why it is all being grossly oversimplified at the moment. Whatever happens, it will not be what any of the politicians are claiming will happen at the moment. That already happens and there is no reason it will automatically happen more as a direct consequence of Brexit. I mean, the only concrete element I’ve seen laid out is extending the length of patents, which would keep expensive medicines expensive for longer in future but not increase the cost of existing generics. Again, this is already an issue and while it certainly could be one of the many issues involved in a future US trade agreement, it wouldn’t necessarily be one that the UK ended up compromising on. I don’t need to look it up, it’s been part of my job for 20 years. And I’m not being snarky, I’m being angry. I’m not saying this isn’t an important and significant thing, I’m saying it’s more important that this electioneering gives it credit for.
You agree it has been privatisation and then claim that to even suggest such a thing is sloganising. You are baiting. You do not believe the people who say 'Get Brexit Done' are intending on doing it? - and it certainly was that the deal wanted was a No Deal which their backers intended on making an indecent amount of money from. As far as the slogan NHS being for sale - this was something created by I do not know but it is said by everyone. The reality is that if we go for a No Deal the UK would have zero to negotiate with. Then you need to look at how negotiations have been going - from Channel 4's Fact Check https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...e-conservatives-send-trump-500-million-a-week and now lets look at your beginning statement wrong. Obviously your support of the Tories, like your belief that my stating we are in a climate emergency is something which will make people think I am a 'bad' person, is simply your centrist view looking for some wonderful thing which you believe the hard right Tories are going to move into - as well of course simply an excuse to accuse Corbyn of being dishonest. Boris is the one who is known for his dishonesty and yet you choose to decide without any research that it is Corbyn. Paul Mason describes the situation we are in well below. There is no going back and given that Johnson almost certainly is going to move to Trump's position also on the Climate Emergency there never has been a more important election- but of course you do not believe there is any kind of emergency about saving the planet either. https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...has-shown-there-will-no-be-return-dead-centre
I’m saying that private organisations have always been involved in the NHS, that has been expanding for several decades and won’t suddenly change as a result of Brexit. I’m saying that isn’t really privatisation as people commonly understand the term and certainly isn’t “selling the NHS”. If you see any private involvement in the NHS as a problem, nothing any of the parties are promising really seeks to address it. If you recognise the real complex set of problems that is modern healthcare in the 21st Century developed world, nothing any of the parties say comes close to addressing it (that is far too big, scary and probably unsolvable for mainstream politics to delve in to). That slogan is only referring to getting the exit deal signed-off. That wouldn’t be the end of the process by a long shot so wouldn’t mean Brexit is “done” by any practical measure. Like all slogans, it’s designed to create a simplistic false image of something that will appeal to people who don’t think too much about the details (i.e. all of us most of the time). That's why I don't like any of them. Again, I’ve never denied that the US-based pharmaceutical companies want to get more money form the NHS and the US government largely supports them on that (or at least want to create that impression for their own political advantage). It's far from a new issue though and won't automatically be made worse (or better) by Brexit. And for all of the problems and negatives involved, it isn’t and never has been “Selling the NHS” by any stretch of the imagination. I thought I’d been clear that I don’t support any of them. For what it matters, I’ll be voting Labour this evening, mainly to avoid the narrow risk of the Brexit “Party” candidate winning (though it is in theory a very safe Labour seat). I’m not really talking about what the parties would actually do in government though, I’m talking about the way all parties and other political campaigners cynically play on voters emotions and ignorance with pithy slogans and generic promises. They’re all professional liars and right now all they care about is getting your vote. Voting on the basis of any of that is foolish at best.
