Trump didn't openly extort Zelensky. He simply made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

That's how the mafia operates. They don't come out and say "If you don't do this, I will kill your whole family".

And yet, criminals are convicted of extortion all the time. How can that happen?

Well... because juries are composed of people who are intelligent enough to make logical deductions.

So if Trump's followers expect that Trump will be exonerated by the American people because he didn't explicitly ask for a quid pro quo... but simply made "insinuations"... they are in for a big surprise.

Trump is obviously well-versed in the ways of the mafia. But, unfortunately for Trump, so are prosecutors.

But, beyond extorsion, there are a number of crimes and high crimes. Trump knew about receiving "a thing of value". Or he would have, if he had read the Mueller Report. And, of course, going directly to a foreign leader, instead of going through the proper authorities (i.e. FBI) is abuse of power. So, at this point, though unpatriotic Senators might keep a criminal in power. Fact is that it will be obvious to anybody who cares to pay any attention that this guy is nothing but a thug who belongs in jail, and not in the White House. And Senators who protect him will have to answer to the American people

 

Since when do they not come out and threaten to kill people?

Seems you've taken confused The GODFATHER with a documentary.

Clearly this is unconfirmed from a New York Times reporter but he claims the Ukraine did not know about the military aid being delayed until a month after the call.

Of course being an unconfirmed tweet from one guy it is not definitive but it does bear some more examination.

Like many thhings in this story there is a lot of unconfirmed stuff floating around.

If they knew it was delayed you can IMPLY a quid pro quo if not then it did not exist and no threats were made.

 

There does NOT have to be a quid pro quo to be a gross abuse of power (although there is)

 

What a refreshing change from obama don't you agree?

 

There is no evidence of either.

Lotys of accusations and speculation but nothing more.

 

1; Trump asked a foreign official to help him win the election by investigating his opponent.

2; Trump "insinuated" that if that official did not help him, that he (Trump) would withhold $250,000,000 in foreign aid from their country.

Both of these are felonies.

Add in the fact that Trump is asking to receive valuable information and it's also an emoluments violation. People always make the mistake of assuming that emoluments only deals with gifts from foreign officials, but in fact it's the act of PROFITTING from dealings with a foreign power which makes it an emolument, not the item which changed hands. Trump knowingly solicited information from a foreign power which could help him win in 2020. He offered this deal for his own personal gain, and therefore you he can be said, under the legal definition, to have been going to profit from the deal. Therefore, it violates the emoluments clause.

 

Following Trump supporter logic, something like "Give me your wallet, or else..." would not really be a death threat.

It was delayed. Trump admitted it.

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/trump-admits-withholding-military-aid-182125168.html

 

Definitely a "change". "Refreshing"... Only if you found being in the Gotti family's hit list "refreshing".

 

I have a couple of questions about this mess that I think are original:

1) When Trump asked Ukraine to "help us out," is there not a question of what he meant by "us"? He could have meant himself and his reelection campaign, as the OP and every Trump hater assume. But he might have meant "us" as in the DOJ. After all, he told Ukraine that the follow up would be a call from the Attorney General. Or he might have meant "the American people who would like to think of you as an ally who will not tolerate corruption." Your response will indicate whether you are cynical on the one hand or naive on the other. It's noteworthy that he did not say "Help ME out" or "I've got a pebble in my shoe," as the Godfather III script describes a request for help.

2) To what extent was the request a normal exchange of information between friendly nations? Might the UK from time to time ask the U.S. for help in it's own Justice Department (Ministry of Justice) inquiries?

3) How in heck did Joe Biden's son end up on that board? Can anyone say with a straight face that Jim Ordinary Miller from Tulsa had as good a chance of ending up on that board? There are good oil and gas men in Oklahoma, too.

4) What was Biden's son doing exactly to earn $50,000/month? It wasn't even a full time job.

5) If Biden were not the son of any of the leading Democrats, would it then have been okay to ask?

6) Assuming Trump had corrupt motives in asking for an investigation of Joe Biden's insistence in firing of the Ukrainian AG (speaking of shakedowns), how are you ever going to determine the extent to which the question was a normal exercise of statecraft and the extent to which it was designed to help him personally?

My own hunch is that Trump probably does smell a rat in the Biden consulting fees (how could he not?), and also would.live to see the rest exposed to help him in 2020, but that ultimately he'll spin it successfully as "I'm not going to avoid a serious question just because it concerns Joe Biden's son. He isn't special."

 

Tucker Carlson just made fun of you.

 

Zelensky mentions the need for more Javelin missiles and Trump says in response
"I would like to ask for a favor THOUGH....." and proceeds to ask him to open a bogus investigation of Biden

 

DOJ isn't investigating Biden. Only Trump is. And if he did mean the DOJ, don't you think he should have told the DOJ about it? DOJ says they learned about it from the whistleblower's complaint.

Through their law enforcement agents, probably. That we know of, the Prime Minister has never called the President of a country to help him dig up dirt on a political enemy, if they expect to get support for their military to fend off an invasion from Russia.

Trump is the only one who has done that.

Don't know or care.... If any Biden broke the law, lock them up! But they're not even under investigation. It's just a diversion. Makes no difference to me because Biden is not even in my top-10 favorite candidates.

Easy... if you have an IQ over 90 and read the transcript, you see it. And we haven't heard from the whistleblower. That is likely to reduce the required IQ level.

Bottom line: if you need somebody to explain it to you... it's not worth it to explain it to you.

I don't know. But anybody who smells a rat in the Biden thing, but not a whole infestation in the Trump thing... is clearly a partisan hypocrite.

 

Well, he claimed that Barr would be calling, so ....

 

LOL, wonderfully condescending, but I asked how you would separate his personal from his official interest in the matter, if any. You'd have to be a mind reader, and no matter your IQ, you still have to make a judgment. But sounds like yours is already in, therefore, "we don't need no stinkin' hearings."

I notice that this Godfather metaphor is all over the cable news networks. The network hears must be reading this thread.

 

See? It can't be extortion because Trump asked nicely.

 

There is no professional interest in this matter.

 

So he lied... I know... Nothing new about that.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...raines-swamp-monster-prosecutor-viktor-shokin

The guy Biden got removed is called a SWAMP CREATURE by the Washington Examiner

 

So I notice.

 

No, you don't know. You may believe, allege, suppose, but you can't know.

I hope the House of Inquisition has a more open mind on the facts of this "matter."

 

I don't see why we need an investigation, then. Case closed.

 

Wrong.

Something like " Give me your wallet or else.............." would be a vague threat not specifically a death threat and that is logic for all intelligent people.

Yes it was delayed and yes Trump admitted it.

What you are ignoring is that there is a question of whther the Ukrainians KNEW it had been delayed at the time of the phone call.

If they did not there was no threat.

 

That Trump is lying, I know! That's his natural state. As for the rest, you can never know who's lying in this administration. But it's always a pretty sure bet that Trump is. And the Justice Department says that they learned about the call from the whistleblower's report. So it's either Trump or the DOJ that is lying. It's a close call, but I will always bet it's Trump.

Why is it that, in this administration, somebody is always lying?

But not the Senate, right?

 

If this were his only crime. But I doubt that....

We also need to know who else is involved.

 

As I said: Trump logic.