Trump levels sanctions on Turkey in attempt to contain the chaos wrecked by his Syria withdrawal

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by PARTIZAN1, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry for your tragic loss in 2016 but worldwide sanctions may have an effect on Turkey.

    Volkswagen postpones final decision on Turkey plant
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-turkey-idUSKBN1WU0GW
     
  2. TurnerAshby

    TurnerAshby Well-Known Member

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    "Ending our involvement over there is important, but at what cost? We just burned one of the only allies we've had in that region. The Kurds aren't going to forget this betrayal and neither will others, including present and potential future allies."

    Money solves all problems, if we need allies again with enough money/resources allies will come forward I'd guess

    I think the execution was haphazard yes and honestly I'm not a fan of being tied with Saudi Arabia because the Saudi /Iran conflict seems like a Russia America proxy war but us has been involved with Saudi Arabia for awhile like me and Margot2 said previously.

    I genuinely think yes Trump did this too hastily but basically any decision but leaving all together is a bad one. We only have bad choices to choose from there.

    My point about other European countries isn't to absolve Trumps quick decision it's just to highlight what their involvement or lack thereof is. Give them the benefit of the doubt that they couldn't be right there ASAP because Trump didn't give them notice but it's been a few days now and where are they?
     
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  3. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    The tragic loss of John MCCain was Aug. 25, 2018. What are you talking about that could have been tragic in 2016?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  4. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Since the beginning in Syria, Russia has been playing chess as the US plays checkers.

    I commend Putin for standing up for his ally Syria. His performance at the UN in late 2015 was superb, and he successfully claimed and held the moral high ground.

    Sadly, the US has not held the moral high ground since Nuremberg.
     
  5. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Russia and Iran are rivals in the oil and gas market. I don't think its a Russian/US proxy war.

    Russia drafted a new constitution for Syria over a year ago which Assad rejected.. They just aren't as cozy as the West may assume.
     
  6. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I felt uneasy having to 'like' your post (above), but for the most part, I think you're right. I despise Erdogan, but the enormous, festering danger of Iran is even far worse compared with Turkey.

    Really, at this point, it's all up to Vladimir Putin. He knows that he has the power to control Syria through support for his puppet, al-Assad. He also knows that he has the leverage to make Erdogan do what he wishes, generally. Iran? Now, there's a different 'animal'... even though it maintains 'friendly' relations with Russia.

    Iran is a powerful and very dangerous country run by a 'priesthood' of Islamic religious fanatics who progress at breakneck-speed, every day, toward possession of thermonuclear hydrogen bombs and the missile systems to put them on targets anywhere in the world.

    The question: Given that Putin has the power, today, to make everyone in the entire Syria-Iraq-Iran 'corridor' comply with Russia's will, how long will he tolerate the rise of a nuclear arms-wielding power governed by 'religious' Islamo-Nazis on his own southern border...?

    My sense is that Putin, wise as he is, will use al-Assad, Erdogan, the Iranians, and anyone else in the region in his continuing, masterful projection of military power and diplomatic influence for the benefit of MOTHER RUSSIA! That is Putin's task, and all his life he has taken that task very seriously.... He will use this assortment of 'Islamo-rabble' for as long as it suits his purpose for Russia's best interests -- and no longer....

    [​IMG]. "Hey, was there really any doubt about that...?"
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  7. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    You bring up a lot of good points. We really can't keep this up forever. I'm not in favor of stepping in every time there is unrest, I just think we made a commitment to the Kurds (intentionally or not) when we stepped into the mess in Syria. I've been against everything but a targeted strike in Afghanistan back in the early 2000's. I'd love to see us get out, but given the economics of oil, I doubt we'll ever do that.
     
  8. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you go die for the Kurds? Tell them we're busy with an invasion of illegals and coup attempt, call the UN.
     
  9. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    We did make a commitment to the Kurds and that is the part that makes me personally uncomfortable about this whole thing. Out of all of the factions over there the Kurds are by far the most capable and respectable. Everything I say is based solely on personal experience, but the Afghan Army is hilariously incompetent to the point of me almost believing they deserve to get whooped on by the Taliban. The Afghan police force as well, both are terrible undisciplined structures and having fought and trained alongside them it is very easy to see how the Taliban is able to run amok the second Americans leave an area. I remember one particular time doing a joint clearing operation with them about to assault a building and the Afghan's refusing to go in unless we went first. Our Platoon Sergeant lost his mind and screamed at the top of his lungs to his Afghan counterpart. "This is YOUR COUNTRY, we are here to help YOU, YOUR MEN will be first in the fire!" That is the sort of nonsense I dealt with on a daily basis, they often refused to fight claiming that we Americans were better equipped than them and they DEMANDED better gear before "agreeing" to help us fight for THEIR country.

    Long story short, they went in first, and what happened next was probably the single most horrifying thing I have ever seen in my life that still haunts my dreams to this day. It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't, and not to sound cruel but it shouldn't have been me, it should have been them when that bomb went off. That was their country, if Soldiers have to die for it, it should be their Soldiers, not ours. I say that for obviously selfish reasons seeing how I'm glad I'm sitting here right now and not scattered all over the pavement like I was originally supposed to be, but that's the way it SHOULD be. Thousands of American and Allied men and women have been wounded and killed fighting these never ending wars...

    The Iraqi Army, same deal. I rarely ever actually get emotional about things in real life, especially world events. But I was personally both livid and heartbroken as I sat on my couch and watched Iraq get conquered by ISIS as I said before. Watching Iraqi troops literally abandon the bases we gave them, abandon the equipment we gave them, and RUN when they even saw ISIS on the horizon. Then I watch ISIS battle flags on top of American built Abrams tanks. I was livid. Whether we should have taken out Sadden in the first place or not doesn't matter to me. What matters is that thousands of Americans died fighting that war. Then I watch as the entire country is overrun a mere couple years later. They died for NOTHING. When I went back to that country to fight again there was a strong resentment towards the Iraqi forces by A LOT of us. Not all of them are cowards, but after watching what happened after we left the first time there were few other words we could think of to describe those forces when we returned.

    The Kurds are different, they always have been. The Kurds are not cowards. The Kurds fight for themselves, they don't argue about going into the fire first. They are grateful for our help and go out of their way to show it every chance they got. Doing little seemingly menial things like going out in the town and bringing us back local food on a routine basis. Always friendly, and even regular no name Kurdish fighters would be walking around saying thank you to the Allied troops. It was a completely different atmosphere working alongside the Kurds. The only group of fighters that, in my personal opinion, deserves our help is them.

    The problem is they are small and not well equipped and they just can't fight off their enemies even though they will all bravely fight to the death to try. They will ALWAYS need our help to protect them they simply are not strong enough to fight off ISIS, or Turkey, or Syria. But that is where it gets murky because at SOME POINT we do have to make a choice. America can't just live there nor can we stay there for the rest of our existence. Outside of a massive regional change in the likes of establishing a recognized Kurdish state and equipping them with Israel level fortification they will get killed by outside forces. But doing that is just not feasible. So what exactly do we do? There is no good answer only multiple terrible ones. The President made a choice, and while I am personally torn up inside about it I do understand why he's doing this.

    The Kurds are the most respectable foreign fighters that I have ever met in my life by a long shot and if anybody deserves American help it's them. But at what cost? And these are the extremely hard choices that make me glad I am not a Commander, let alone a Commander in Chief. Because at the end of the day when the emotion and the politics and bias is all said and done, the question is pretty cut and dry. The Kurds are our best ally in the region and deserve our help, we have been helping them for decades. Are you, Commander, willing to send me to die to continue helping them after so long?

    Not send in "ground troops", not send in the "Army", me. I am the "Army", I almost died 5 times fighting these wars for you (hell I should be dead honestly...), many others were not as lucky as I was. We are your "Soldiers" and we have been fighting and dying for 18 years. Are you willing to send me back again?

    It's not as easy of a choice as so many make it out to be. 1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. Nearly 7,000 Americans have died fighting this War on Terror. That's just a statistic to many people, for me it's not. I know people who comprise that number, good friends of mine. And I watched with my own eyes on a number of occasions in sheer horror as fellow troops added to that body count. So when I hear so often statements like "We need to help the Kurds" or "we need to stay there until the job is done".

    I am the "we". This isn't a football game. "Our defense sucks this year" "We can't score more than 7 points per game". Yeah I know people talk like that all the time in regards to sports teams and whatnot. But this isn't a game, this is war.
     
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  10. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Truly, sir, you should consider writing a book, and, even better, maybe you should consider running for office at the federal level. YOU are exactly the kind of person we need helping to formulate the 'thought-processes' of America today! :flagus:
     
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  11. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    FYI, in order to get other troops from other nations, some diplomacy must be involved, mainly Syria. What Trump did here is inexcusable.
     
  12. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I appreciate your kind words.

    At the end of the day all I really want is for people to take into consideration the human factor in all of this. I completely understand the thought process of many people. Before I decided on this career path many years ago I too used to watch the news and think in more general terms such as "Army" or "troops". I've always been a military buff and while watching documentaries I'd see troops on TV and simply think of them as "troops". Even terrible scenarios like watching a documentary on D-Day and hearing the number of causalities it never really hit "home" per say. Although I felt it tragic to me there was a huge disconnect, "2,500 dead Allied troops" that day. But they were just "troops", there were no faces to the names although they of course all had names and faces.

    After doing this for so long and seeing and experiencing this in real life I obviously see things is a much different light. They are not just "troops". WE are not just "troops". We are people too, there are faces to the names and we have lives and families and children and we bleed and we die and we are not just statistics on the news or internet. When you Google "War on Terror deaths" it'll just pop up a number. 7000, which doesn't mean that much to many people. Well let me rephrase, it does mean something to people, the sheer amount of support and gratitude that I personally receive from civilians when I so much as stop by the store on my way home from work to pick up a few things in uniform is heartwarming. Even to this day 18 years later I stand in line at Lowe's to pick up an order and 4 people walked by to shake my hand and a woman gave me a hug, in the span of about 5 minutes. It's genuinely heartwarming that so many people care and appreciate the military even when they don't see us on the news fighting as often as they did in years past.

    But saying that, not speaking ill of anyone, many folks still subconsciously view the military as "the military". And entity, a collective, not as individuals. When folks hear things like "Send a Brigade Combat Team" it sounds like a "thing", not a unit comprised of thousands of individual Americans who are kissing their loved ones goodbye to go off to fight a war, again. When we visit places like Arlington we see thousands of white crosses, the amount that we see subconsciously degrades the meaning. It's a human emotional aspect. Large numbers become statistics, smaller numbers are tragedies. But I know some of the people buried there beneath a few of the thousands of white crosses. Individual American Soldiers....one of them a teenager...

    Point is, we as a society have to think about this and think about what we are asking. I don't use the term "me" to try to garner sympathy or anything like that. I use the term "me" to hopefully get folks thinking about the individual human factor in these decisions. I am a person too, I have a life, I just ate breakfast and had my coffee. I had a family before, they couldn't handle the stress of the profession I chose so a few years ago they got on an airplane and I never saw them again. And 3 months later I too got on an airplane again, and my destination was not to where my family went, it was to Iraq to fight a war. I have sacrificed quite a bit, I have permanent medical conditions that I will have for the rest of my life, I have been left alone by my previous family, and I have spent years of my life in the desert and mountains fighting wars on behalf of the United States of America. I have friends who are dead and I have friends who are disabled. My dress blues are beautiful, they shine with rows of medals and combat stripes. But what they don't show are the scars that I carry both physically and mentally and the prices I paid and the sacrifices I made to make that uniform gleam.

    And I am not unique in that regard. I am the common Soldier. I am the "Army". And even with all that I have given, I am still here ready and willing to give even more. I don't want sympathy, I don't want praise, I have no regrets, I would do it all over again if I had to. But I ask society as a whole, I am here at your command, I am your "Soldiers", and if you say go then I will go. How much more are you asking me to sacrifice? How much longer are you asking me to keep fighting?
     
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  13. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    I can understand your unease in "liking" a post of someone who is not a fan of Trump's administration. Yet you are intelligent enough to understand that political beliefs are not monolithic for some of us.
    You are absolutely correct that Putin's goal is to restore Russia to empire status. He wants Russia to be powerful be it a monarchy, a Marist state, or a Fascist oligarchy. You do remember that Putin said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the disintegration of the USSR.

    Iran is indeed a greater evil in process. They are indeed arming themselves and they have bragged about it.

    I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq and have said that we should have used our and our ally's resources against Iran after we took care of Afghanistan. No not an all out invasion but taking an extreme line on sanctions and "blockade" to the point that would make Iran start fighting so "we" would have had to hit them with missles, drones, air bombardment and anything short of invasion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  14. RP12

    RP12 Well-Known Member

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    Why is that? Then again we have no right to be there in the first place.
     
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  15. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    That is beyond a silly and foolish statement. I have to assume that you are not willing to debate or discuss the Betrayal of the Kurds so you post inanities.
     
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  16. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously asking why another has to ask the host nation about stationing troops, if you are, you need to learn about international law !!!!!!!
     
  17. RP12

    RP12 Well-Known Member

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    My point thanks... We do not give a flying **** about international law it seems as we had no right to be in Syria in the first place..

    FFS keep up..
     
  18. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good for trump and our people especially our soldiers !

    Our stupidity and irresponsibility has left parts of the ME much worse off by our invasions of sovereign nations and war mongering.

    Getting out of Muslim lands is what intelligence demands.

    Repeating the same failed actions while expecting differ results id the definition of being bat **** crszy.
     
  19. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    No one wants endless war but once we committed to help an ally go after a terrorist group such as ISIS we are stupid to stab them in the back and just leave them to the wolves without a measured strategic exit. Furthermore we gave Russia and Iran free access to that part of the ME and destroyed whatever was left of any American credibility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  20. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am sure we tooks lots of bags of cash and spent a ton on arming and training them. That they worked out a deal with assad and Syria helps to get out sooner than later with lower loss of American lives.

    It was brilliant! If the goal id to stop adding to the suffering we have created.

    Turkey is a greater ally via NATO. Bound by agreement on paper and official. So we were left with no other option. We dont shoot snd kill nato allies. That trumps getting into war with turkey.

    Finally intelligence driven actions in that part of the world !
     
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  21. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    I did not see as there being hardly chance of war with turkey. The worst thing from a geopolitical aspect is that we gave Iran an opening and of course just let Russia have total unfettered run of that part of the ME.
     
  22. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Banned

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    Betrayal of Kurds? I don't remember you complaining about it. I guess it was OK. Your hatred for Trump completely blinds you.

    Obama's deal with Turkey is a betrayal of Syrian Kurds and may not even weaken Isis
    Since the accord, the Turks have only waged war on Kurds

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...f-syrian-kurds-and-may-not-even-10432524.html

    "In fact, the war waged by Turkey in the days since this great American diplomatic success has been almost entirely against the Kurds, at home and abroad.

    Turkish jets are pounding sites occupied by the PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) guerrillas in the Qandil Mountains and other parts of northern Iraq. Inside Turkey, the majority of those detained by the security forces turn out to be Kurdish or left-wing activists and not suspected Isis sympathisers. Prosecutions are threatened against MPs of the largely Kurdish Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP) which has tirelessly advocated peace between the PKK and the Turkish government. Evidently, the HDP’s offence was to win 13 per cent of the votes in Turkey’s general election on 7 June, thereby depriving President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s ruling AKP of its parliamentary majority for the first time since 2002.."
     
  23. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Banned

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    Someone needs to teach ignorant posters on this forum that Syria has always been in Russia's sphere of influence. Not in the US sphere of influence so an idiotic statement that somehow the USA gave Russia a free access to Syria is totally laughable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  24. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    What actions that were carried out by Iran would have justified an attack on Iran in 2001-2003?
     
  25. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Your failure to remember is not my fault. Maybe a regimen of Prevagen would be advisable for you. I wish you well while you recover from this recent bout of apparent memory loss.
     

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