Trump may come out of this latest Kurd debacle smelling like a rose

Discussion in 'United States' started by Giftedone, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obama was against the Iraq invasion in the first place. He would have remained with 8-10K U.S. forces for ongoing training and advise, and air support, but reluctantly. Both Obama and Trump have the same overall goal in respect to getting out of the quagmire of the ME. They differ on the tactics. If Obama wanted some political credit for our withdrawal, I don't blame him. Sooo...to some extent...the Iraqi Parliament's demand was "a gift horse." Trump may have been able to get to the same place, with better tactics, less destructive to our former Kurdish allies. Unlike the Iraqi Parliament, the Kurds didn't demand we leave unless our forces were placed under Kurdish law.
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Well, then, it is settled. Lets spread the news: the taboo is lifted:)
     
  3. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who? If I am not mistaken, the Israeli-Egyptian accords, reached by Sadat, remain enforce, no? The deeper goal, but not well expressed, of the Bush administration, after they failed to find WMD, was the creation of "secular democracies" replacing dictatorships, when the more obvious direction following the elimination of western-oriented dictators was toward theocracies, based on Islam.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sure - I get all that - and agree - but - more specifically to corruption of our foreign policy, with respect to throwing out the rule book - not that what you say does not relate - because it does... - I get the internal dynamics of how it happen from a political and /or "Official Establishment Narrative" perspective. Each in congress is a political animal and makes calculated decisions accordingly.

    My question is " Was it the right decision that was arrived at" Should we continue to just throw away the rule book ... when it suits our purposes... while telling other nations to "follow the rules".

    This double standard was accepted for decades... as we were the world economic empire - and essentially the only game in town. We only need whisper our desires into the ear of another nation and they would come rushing to oblidge. They all wanted to play in the US economy .. and we were the only game in town that mattered.

    We don't live in that world no more. There are vestiges of it that still remain .. such as our controlling the international system of payments - world reserve currency - but we are no longer the only game in town - not even close.

    The war being waged is not military - and hasn't been since the advent of nukes - the day the rules of the chess game changed ... and the pieces on the board changed in value ... with the strongest piece on the board being not military ... but Economic !

    And the adversaries know this - and so do we contrary to the propaganda narrative put out to you on a daily basis from the defence contractor owned MSM.

    While we fumble around - assessing the position from the past perspective "Military is #1" - wasting our nations resources on the basis of this mistaken perspective (For Decades) - our opponents have been making very good moves.

    In 2000 "Total - Military Spending" - including VA Pensions and all that - Homeland Security .. intelligence services all in ... was roughly 300 Billion.

    After 8 years of Bush - the total was over 900 Billion/yr - under Obama it topped 1 Trillion.

    Had we maintained 2000 spending levels - increasing with inflation - we could have diverted 500 Billion/yr x 16 years = 8 Trillion dollars - to things like infrastructure, technology, ramping up our economy to compete in the 3rd millennium.

    First world health care spending per person is roughly half of what we pay - for middle of the road service. 3.5 Trillion in 2017. - I digress so I will leave it to you to do the math on potential savings over 16 years.

    Tell you this though ... folks profiting on war - are the same ones profiting on healthcare - same ones who are telling those individual "political animals" how to vote.

    In summary - we are not making good moves - and we need to get back to working with the rest of the world - as "Adult to Adult" rather than "Parent to Child" - as we have been able to get away with for so many decades.

    Trade Wars - Protectionism - using the USD - "nuclear option" to threaten and force our allies into going along with unilateral Iran sanctions - where we were the ones that violated the bargain. "Do as we say - not as we do".

    Nuclear option is threatening to block a nations banks - corporations - out of the international system of payment.

    The response was visceral " You are violating our sovereignty". Not in private - but stated directly on the international stage. I don't think the people of the USA would take kindly to some nation messing with sovereignty .. that nation might have a tougher time getting contracts for a few years.

    While we are going around trying to club the nations of the world into submission - Russia and China are going around doing deals ... as is the EU ... and we are getting the big middle finger when we "whisper our desires" near every time one turns around. S-400 India-Turkey, Nordstream Germany, Italy - Belt and Road Initiative - also being looked on fondly by South America. France - even the Brits - let the Iranian ship go ... That's another "throw out the international rules of the sea" - throw out the Rule Book - do as we say - not as we do - Example.

    We need to recognize the position for what it is - and start making better moves
     
  5. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's a bit scattered but the strong point is that Obama took credit for 'ending the war in Iraq', which he repeated very frequently, then dissociated himself when the genocides and mass killings began.

    In 2011 there were 54 US military deaths (if I remember correctly) from ALL sources. This includes vehicular accidents, etc. In other words, there was peace in the area and all Obama had to do was maintain the status quo, as the military wanted. Later more American lives were lost when they were forced to return to regain the territory they had previously won. These are the facts and are easily verifiable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  6. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of this refutes my post.
     
  7. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Was there ever such a taboo in any Muslim country? I doubt it. And there certainly wasn't in any of the democracies. You can continue to complain all you want.
     
  8. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  9. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't disagree...although I do understand and expected more to be spent on the military, intelligence, homeland security, etc., following 9/11. I generally agreed with Obama's foreign and defense policies (with a few exceptions). He seems to have realized our loss in power and influence after the recession and shifted to a greater reliance on "collective security," while shifting the focus (to the degree possible) from the Middle East to the Pacific Basin, which I believe he thought he understood better than the ME. Trump, today, seems to carry on that geographic shift in focus, but rather than collective security, he's shifted toward nationalism and bilateralism which rely more on our former power and influence. Same basic goals...different strategies.
    I voted for Obama twice. The first time was because he seemed to understand the economy better than McCain, who favored a more aggressive foreign policy, perhaps because of his Navy career. However, his timing was terrible, in regard to the economy. He admitted he knew little about it and relied on a close Senate friend Phil Gramm from Texas, whom I regard as basically a crook. As a Republican earlier, I had supported McCain in the 2000 primaries. In 2008, he seemed a bit too old and out of focus on too many issues, although I still admired his character. In 2012, although generally satisfied with Obama, I seriously considered Romney. But, I decided Romney's business success was based on an antiquated business model for one thing and for another, seemed to rely on the old stand-by, the Military-Industrial Complex as "economic stimulus." That, I concluded as unnecessary and would have only resulted in the wasteful deployment of resources that would have probably concluded only in additional global arms-races. So...I voted a second time for Obama, who - IMO - was proposing infrastructure spending (including universal health care and education) as his economic stimulus, while shifting to more reliance on collective security. Actually, Obama had inherited the 2% of GDP spending for NATO members, as a "vague target," and turned it into a specific goal, by 2020, at a Wales NATO Summit meeting.
    Overall, in my opinion, Trump's "success" or "failure" will depend upon his judgement of U.S. influence and power and the leverage it provides versus the rest of the world. Like Obama, I think that leverage has dropped significantly, while Trump believes it's still there.
    On domestic versus foreign policy...the old saying, which went back to the beginning of a bi-partisan consensus on the Cold War, was national differences end at the water's edge. Globalization probably changed that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was hopeful when Obama was first elected ... civil rights activist - Harvard Constitutional Scholar - He turned out to be an Establishment wonk for the most part. Only so many feathers a Blue President with a Red majority in both houses can ruffle but - there was not much change when it comes down to brass taxes.

    It would be a dream to only spend 2% of GDP We are talking "Total Military spend here" - not just DOD. At 1 Trillion per year this is over 5% of GDP. almost a third of all Federal Receipts. The "Intelligence" spend alone is over 80 Billion - and if you add in the 50 Billion dollar "dark project" budget that is 130 Billion.

    130 Billion is double the entire federal spend of Mexico - a nation that is 11th in the world in terms of purchasing power ...much of which goes into the pockets of defense contractors... and a whole bunch goes into creation and dissemination of propaganda - so that you and I keep agreeing to fund this monstrosity.

    We have better things to do with our money then spend 6, 7 8 Trillion dollars (many figures out there ... all of them ugly) on the so called "war on terror".

    While on the topic of Orwell - Ministry of information where propaganda is created. being the previous example - and following up on the "war on terror".

    How is it that 10 years after 9-11 - in 2011 - Obama armed and supported a proxy army that consisted of radical Islamist Jihadists - Al Qaeda and the groups that would later form an Islamic State... IS-ISIS. How is this not Orwellian doublespeak .. fighting a war on terror by arming and supporting the terrorists. An action that led to the worst atrocity so far this decade 400,000 dead. History will declare Obama guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity for that one ...

    We still fight along side Al Qaeda in Yemen .. a fight where we are already being investigated (by the UN) for complicity in war crimes and crimes against humanity.

    but back to the point .. we have lost the middle east our influence and economic opportunity waning significantly. - this is not what "winning" looks like.

    Trade war with China .. and now getting into it with the EU - but at the same time. Trump has started an economic war with the world on the sanctions front. Those lucky enough to have a Trade war .. also have this other economic war to contend with - using the nuclear option (blocking a nations banks and corps out of the international system of payments) if they do not go along with the Iran Sanctions.

    We are seeing big backlash and our economic security is suffering .. we are losing.
     
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  11. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well...next year you're only going to have several choices (maybe four). So, you'll have to make your choice or stay out.
     
  12. AndrewEB

    AndrewEB Active Member Past Donor

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    Every administration has been guilty of inadvertantly supporting terrorists, at least since the Cold war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

    That is not to mention the longstanding US tradition of staunchly supporting Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, one of the biggest funders and supporters of Sunni Islamic terrorism.
     
  13. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How has US foreign policy been corrupted by supporting another democracy?
     
  14. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    However BHO may have felt in 2001 is not relevant to the situation in 2011 when there was relative peace in the area and Iraq was under control. The entire history can be summed by before December 2011 and after December 2011.

    There is now chaos in the ME and Trump wants out, and understandably. But the situation was quite different in 2011 when BHO pulled the troops. Leadership was smarter in post WWII Europe when they understood that the military must remain in or to maintain peace..
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I answered that back in another post.. and you should know the answer to your question anyway - at least to some degree.

    "Throwing away the rule book" has been a corruption of our foreign policy. Golan, human rights abuses, wanton and intentional killing of civilians - like bombing a media center when journalists were interviewing a person they wanted to target - and general neglect for human life - to a point that Europe has accused them of war crimes.
     
  16. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Haven't read the previous post and, as you know, opinions on Jews and Israel vary a great deal.

    And the reasons you described are far more common among Israels neighbors than in Israel. How do Europeans feel about that?
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    War crimes accusations have come from Europe - if we are not taking these accusations seriously - we are throwing away the rule book.

    There are numerous instances where near all of the all has voted to condemn actions by Israel - some actions which even Israeli's were condemning - actions that if done by another Nation - especially one that is not a client state - we would eagerly condemn .. yet - because it is "Israel" we vote against these resolutions.

    This is a corruption of our foreign policy.

    The Golan Heights - The nations of the world have voted against annexation - including the Security council. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with this ruling - the fact of the matter is that annexation constitutes a violation of international law .. agreements we have signed on to and expect others to abide by.

    For us to just "throw out the rule book" - is a corruption of our foreign policy -
     
  18. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes - Trump's move is a blessing for Syria, Russia, Turkey and Iran. There is no need to help Kurds more than US helped Saudi Arabia after Iran's attack. And China is watching - maybe is is a time remove our fleet from Asia?
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The people of Syria were not "blessed" by our arming and supporting a radical Islamist Jihadist proxy army - an action which led to the death of 400,000 people, war crimes, crimes against humanity and numerous other atrocities.

    Perhaps it is time to let the only adult in the Room .. "Russia" .. sort things out.
     
  20. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We had a choice; either leave or place our forces under Iraqi law, subject to Iraqi courts, rather than remain under the UCMJ. Obama made the right decision.
     
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  21. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which Europeans are you referring to and why are they important? Who really cares what they say?
    What other countries have these Europeans condemned?

    Whose 'rule book' are you following? And why would the USA follow anyone else's rules?
     
  22. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The third choice, and the correct one, was to ignore these corrupt idiots and maintain the peace that thousands fought and dies to establish. Why should BHO have obey these disgusting characters, especially after being advised consistently about what would happen if he followed through with his craziness.
     
  23. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    Leaving all at once without telling anyone wasn't what they meant.
     
  24. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because they were the majority of the Iraqi Parliament.
     
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  25. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So what?

    Did the corrupt Iraqis tell BHO what to do? Do they direct his foreign policy? In fact that's what many suspect of Obama and his Muslim background.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019

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