Turn back time?

Discussion in 'History and Culture' started by Sallyally, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect to the Roman Empire, ultimately it's quite alien from where we are now. I would save my history changing closer to home.

    1. Save Abraham Lincoln from assassination. There was actually restitution to freed slaves going on that ended after Johnson took over the Presidency. I think if he had been allowed to put the country back together after the Civil War, it would have saved a lot of strife.

    2. Prevent WWI. Stop the arch duke's assassination. World War I was probably the most wasteful and needless war in European history. Preventing that war could have lead to decades more peaceable growth in the West, and of course, preventing the rise of Hitler and World War 2.
     
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  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Which "Roman Empire"?

    There are 2 of them, and you seem to be mashing them together badly here.

    The Western Roman Empire fell in 476, primarily through wave after wave of Barbarian invasions. That is the one that started the Dark Ages, which lasted until the 15th century.

    Then you have the Eastern Roman Empire, it survived the barbarian incursions. But it fell after a series of invasions by first the Christian Kingdoms to the West (primarily looting on the way to or from the Holy Lands during the Crusades), then finally to the Muslims in 1453 (who were primarily interested in ending it's use as a forward base by invading Crusaders).

    You simply can not mix the two together, they fall almost 1,000 years apart. To very different reasons.
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Thomas Jefferson wrote to Meriwether Lewis on 20 June 1803, and gave him the following instructions:

    https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/lewisandclark/transcript57.html

    It is unknown how effective this may have been. The regions they had traveled through had already seen several waves of plague run through it (primarily from English, French and Russian trappers), as well as the intercontinental 1500's plagues. It was largely to little to late by that time I am sure.

    And the mortality was low, in Europe. Where the people living there were the descendants of thousands of years and countless waves of plagues. Small Pox, Bubonic Plague, Pneumonic Plague, and countless others. Even in such a population you had a 3% mortality rate (roughly the same as Chickenpox). But in a virgin area, 70% mortality would not be unheard of.

    Remember, these are virus. They behave very differently than a bacteriological infection. And given the right circumstances can quickly mutate into a completely new disease.

    Just look to HIV for a perfect example of that. A chimp disease, it first jumped to humans in the 1800's where it was a long term wasting disease. Initially the first people to suffer from it were bushmen (most likely from uncooked chimp meat). And there it stayed for a century, until it got introduced to the cities, then jumped to Europe and America. Once meeting the more aggressive immune systems, it mutated and adapted, aggressively targeting those immune systems.

    In doing so, a long term chronic disease that a person could live with for decades was killing people within a few years.

    While I do not keep up with it as I once have, in the mid-1990's I became highly interested in virus outbreaks, especially the "Rainforest" diseases like Ebola and HIV, as well as the various strains of Avian Flu and even Swine Flu (our last major pandemic, which killed 100+ million people, around 5% of the population of the planet at the time).
     
  4. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    I think I can mix the two together. Gibbon did in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, at any rate. And the inhabitants of Byzantium thought of themselves as Roman and preserved the traditions of Rome. And they fell for the same reasons, barbarian invasions.

    The 4th Crusade did indeed sack Constantinople, but that was a one off. The Muslims conquered Constantinople because that is what they did, they were barbarians who went around conquering people. Just ask the Persians and the Indians. And they didn't stop at Constantinople but were stopped at Vienna.

    Anyway, quibbling aside, what do you think of my idea of arming the Romans with gunpowder. Do you think the world would be more technologically advanced today?
     
  5. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how alien it is. Our republic today owes much to Roman models.

    WWI is certainly as terrible as you claim, but it would have broken out in any case. The assassination of the Archduke was merely the spark that set off the powder keg. Another spark would have come about eventually.

    I do prefer going back further in time as small, hopefully beneficial, changes would have more time to evolve.
     
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  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, because it takes more than just a technology by itself.

    Gunpowder had been around for centuries before it was weaponized. Even after gunpowder was spread to Europe, the Trebuchet continued to be the primary siege weapon for at least another century and more.

    And once again, which Romans? Are you talking about the Eastern or Western Roman Empire?

    You mean the Republic which lasted for around 450 years, and was dead before Jesus was born?

    Yea, that Republic was really interesting. Slavery was rampant, and you could even be sold into debt slavery.

    In fact, the Republic is little more than the elite ruling over the commoners. Plebians having little rights, living in squalor while the Patricians held all of the power and all of the positions. However, after several Pleb revolts they did set up a secondary system of offices and schools just for the plebs. Kind of the "Separate but Equal" thing, a bone thrown along with more bread to keep them in their place.

    No, our Republic barely resembles that of ancient Rome. Although many do pine for the fantasy that it could have been.
     
  7. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    I'd give it to the Romans a year before Constantine set up a dual emperorship to better manage the defense of the Empire from the incursions of the barbarians. So both administrative districts would have had gunpowder.

    And I would also instruct them in the art of weaponizing gunpowder, of course. Just imagine the effect of a few mortar shells lobbed into Attila's advancing horde. I am convinced it would change the course of history for the better.

    What society in history doesn't have the elites ruling over the plebes? You don't think that is what we have now? Heck, that's what government is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  8. jmblt2000

    jmblt2000 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct in todays technology level.

    I am assuming that if our technology has advanced far enough to include time travel, then innoculating a community would be possible.

    This is all a hypothetical anyway.
     
  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I took a course on the Roman Empire in college and one of the things I recall was some assigned reading by Roman authors, like Tacitus. Reading real Romans, as opposed to reading history written by modern Western peers, showed the radical cultural difference. Or that was my impression anyway.

    But the further you go back to make changes, the more radical those changes are going to be on the current 21st Century. There have been innumerable SF tales of one wrong move in the past radically alters everything else, in ways we may not like.
     
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  10. jmblt2000

    jmblt2000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah one of the best of those is "Pastwatch; The Redemption of Christopher Columbus" by Orson Scott Card.
     
  11. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    You are probably right. The thing is, it is the modern world I find alien. I am baffled and repelled by the Progressive project, so I turn to the past which I suppose makes me a reactionary.

    I am open to the criticism that I am idealizing a past that never was. But I counter that the Progressives are idealizing a future that never will be.

    And that is what makes experiments like these fun, and harmless fun at that.
     
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  12. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    What if Christianity were somehow taken out of the picture?
     
  13. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    That is beyond my imagining. Civilizations are inspired by religion, according to Toynbee.

    Roman paganism had lost its mojo, much like Christianity today. Something new had to take its place. Trying to imagine what civilization would be created by Mithraism, for example, is beyond me.
     
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  14. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    We might all be Jewish.
     
  15. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    I'd probably get on the side of witch hunts to slow down progress. IMO modern man is not doing a whole lot for the planet or its other species.
     
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  16. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Witch hunts for witches or the Spanish Inquisition? Or Joseph McCarthy?
    Lots to choose from.
     
  17. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Anybody that tried to replace organic evolution with shortcut scientific deconstruction. I wouldn't impede progress in natural areas that were in tune with the balance of nature, but I would definitely have people that advocated destroying rain forests to raise cows or grow palm oil to make lipstick burnt at the stake. For example.

    I would also be careful not to allow anything that was able to slow the growth of human population to be totally eliminated.
     
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