U.S. Can Do NOTHING For Climate Change - John Kerry

Discussion in 'Science' started by ChemEngineer, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Equality

    Equality Banned

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    The US can do something about climate change! They could listen to me and a detailed analysis that is not without a problematic solution .
     
  2. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Based on this report it's going to be an uphill battle to obtain a higher percentage of college graduates;

    https://hechingerreport.org/more-hi...er-are-going-to-college-but-1-in-5-will-quit/
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That report shows that many leave because of direct or indirect financial problems. They're trying to balace work and school. They notice that their indebtedness is skyrocketing and realize they owe that whether they graduate or not - making it a serious risk for those without family money.

    Also, it does mean that we have work to do at the high school level, too. - both for quality of education and a general understanding of how college works. That is probably especially true for those who have no relatives who have graduated from college. I've talked to such kids and it's no surprise that they simply don't know how it works. They may understand "job training", but the idea of a degree that doesn't guarantee them a specific job just doesn't help form a convincing argument for borrowing tens of thousands of dollars.
     
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Financing is an issue but there are many other factors at play. If we wave the magic wand and give everyone free university studies I'm guessing a few people will endeavor but not the masses of young people that are needed. I worked part-time during high school and during college which the latter required six years to complete due to working part-time since student debt was not an option for me. If college would have been free, I still would have attended but I also would need to work part-time to pay my way in life. So, in my case, attending college was a desire and goal, no matter if it was free or I paid cash up front. College studies don't guarantee a great job! They do help get one's foot in the door and can be financially rewarding in certain careers. I think also many people simply do not have the aptitude for college studies and having free education for these people might net a few more graduates but again not the masses we need. People need to be prepared for higher education starting in elementary grades but certainly during high school and I don't see this happening today with perhaps 50% of students learning nothing or dropping out. Lastly, I'll guess if we provide free university studies, over a short time period, the output will be watered down so much it will become more of a process than a true education, and if so, we will have few net gains over today's high school graduates...
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm not necessarily suggesting that it be free. But, today's costs are no more than a way of reserving college for those whose families have money. And, if the family has more than one kid, that's another multiplier.

    I worked my way through college, paying for terms when I had the money. I know what that's like.

    BUT, that doesn't work today. Nobody is going to pay a high school kid what it costs to go to college.
     
  6. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This education dialogue is off topic but I'll offer one more comment; Perhaps there needs to be some financial incentive for both the schools and the students? For example, for each kid that graduates from high school with appropriate success, the school is given BIG BUCK$, and each kid who graduates gets a voucher equal to 50-75% of the cost of under-graduate university studies.

    I don't like the idea of 'free' college, and I don't like the idea of trying to force students into college who don't have the aptitude, but I'm all for greatly subsidizing all kids with potential...
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    During our move from an agrarian economy to a manufacturing economy we determined that 8th grade was no longer enough. So, we build high schools all across the country and insisted that they be attended. We charged zero. It made a huge difference in our competitiveness.

    Now, we're moving beyond manufacturing to high tech, clean energy, innovation, information, etc., where high school is simply not enough. We can't surrender these sectors to other nations. And, the jobs that support families are moving. We've seen that in coal country, in Michigan's car industry, and other places where people had careers that are going away as manufacturing moves to hire people who can design, build, install and operate automated plants. Our jobs that pay well are moving toward having college as a requirement.

    The idea of free college is not even slightly crazy - any more than free high school was crazy.

    Another way of looking at it is that our areas of competitiveness require more education. We have only 5% of the world's brains. We aren't going to successfully compete against the 95% while wasting brains. We need every brain we can find - whether born in a ghetto, in a foreign country, or whatever.
     
  8. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You just ignore the whole thing and go on with your life.
     
  9. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    So you have a solution? Probably not. It is much easier to criticize others.
     
  10. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Technology and innovation is moving everyone into more complex worlds and this started long ago...in the pre-industrial age. US companies will find suitable employees no matter if they're indigenous or foreign. And because large scale commerce is global, companies will continue to have facilities and employees and suppliers around the world. How many more college educated people we need in the US moving forward will depend on many factors and therefore will not guarantee the masses great paying jobs. One of those factors is what you mentioned about the 5%-95% and I question if we can ever exceed 5%? I'd like to see a smarter populace which benefits everyone at all levels so the question is how to achieve this? One way is to greatly improve the high school curriculum and figure out how to graduate 95-98%. Another way is to assist kids with higher aptitudes to take university studies. Meanwhile we're not producing enough people in the US so we require an influx of immigrants and I'm guessing most/many of these will not have solid basic educations and will struggle with little or no English. From the perspective of the economy, about 50% of American workers earn $17/hour or less. China with it's population has about 4 times more geniuses than the US, 4 times more honor students, 4 times more entrepreneurials, and millions more workers to perform repetitive line work. Apple has said many times that it is impossible to duplicate iPhone factories and personnel in the US as there is in China. Free college will have some positive benefits but it's not going to be a panacea...
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    In my technical career it has been very hard to find adequate numbers of software engineers capable of doing the work that needs to be done. I ALWAYS had numerous open headcount that had us searching the US, Canada, India, UK, Japan and everywhere else.

    The idea that we could ever have too many smart people is just absolutely and fundamentally ridiculous.
     
  12. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Smart people will find a way to attend college no matter if it's free or not. And smart people can achieve careers and be entrepreneurial without a high school diploma or college education. The US will never have too many smart people and never as many as China and India and the world. The US will need to find it's niche in the world economy and take steps to adequately sustain this effort...better public education and college subsidies will help...
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And that is the sad but true part.

    Far to many take "climate change" like a religion. And as any "born again believer" or fanatic, they will go to any extreme in attacking anybody who questions their faith.

    This is probably one of the things that puts me off of the movement the most. Not that I find large holes in their beliefs, in that any form of questioning their beliefs comes under instant attack. "Science denier" is key among them.

    Even when individuals in the field are found to fake data and wiggle results to support their claim, they still accept it 100%, not because it is science but simply because it supports their beliefs.
     
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  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And what exactly is the problem with that?

    Well, a huge reason that is really just boils down to local economics. Far to many obsesses over areas like New York or San Francisco. But the majority of people who live in the US live in areas like Dothan (Alabama), Cascade (Idaho), Pella (Iowa), and the like.

    Areas where even $10 an hour is a good wage, and $15 can push you into the "middle class" in the region. I know that I was one of the highest paid people I knew when I lived in Alabama, at $15 an hour. But at that $15 an hour I lived far better than I did at $21 an hour in California because the cost of living was so low. I was renting half a duplex for $250 a month, my commute was never more than 25 miles (most of it at 50 mph), and everything from car insurance and utilities to movies and gas were much less than I had paid previously.

    When you compare $21 an hour against $15 an hour, and the difference in rent alone is $850 (for a room) compared to $250 (for a 2 bedroom place by myself), there is absolutely no comparison.

    Of course, to far to many people everything is only about money. They base everything in their life around how much they make, and I have seen that over and over again. And right now here in a more rural area of California, I am seeing the effect of increasing minimum wage first hand.

    You talk about $17 an hour like it is nothing. Well, most people in the US do not have the kinds of expenses those wages demand. Right now where I live we are in a housing bubble, caused by a disaster last year. Work is hard to find, and rents have gone up dramatically. But it is only a bubble, and actually being made worse by the state government. And we do not think we will see any change in this for at least another 1-2 years.
     
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  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The vast majority of new successful corporations are started by those with college degrees. That is the engine of our new employment. From what ranks does our biomedical advancement come? Who is doing the design, building, installation and operation of the automation we talk about every day? Who do we have that will compete with China in clean energy when they have more patents in clean energy technology than anyone else and are turning this into a major export business that exceeds all other countries? These and other similar industries ARE the niches. We need educated minds to even FIND other niches, let alone to turn them into something that could make a difference to America.

    And as per capitalism, raising a significant financial barrier WILL reduce the number of customers.

    Our niche in the world economy is not going to be in agriculture or manufacturing. And, even in those areas, high tech, innovation, automation and other techniques are becoming more and more required. In order to compete, in order to have a country with the same or better standard of living, we need to increase the percent of those who are well educated.

    The fact that those without degrees will contribute is not an argument in opposition to the above.
     
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  16. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    About 80% of Americans live in urban areas.

    How much people earn determines how people can live...this is a critical factor in most people's lives.

    Wages are determined mostly by supply and demand of labor. I didn't attach any opinion or emotion to the $17/hour number...this is an accurate number for about half of Americans. And this includes those 80% living in urban areas.
     
  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/19/survey-shows-majority-of-business-owners-lack-college-degree.html

    “Let’s face it,” said Mark Zuckerberg to an audience of newly minted Harvard grads during the 2017 Harvard commencement speech. “You accomplished something I never could.”

    The billionaire Facebook co-founder and CEO meant getting a college degree, and it’s a résumé gap that Zuckerberg doesn’t share just with Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and other tech visionaries. A majority of small-business owners in the United States don’t have a college degree, according to the recent CNBC/SurveyMonkey Small Business Survey. It’s hidden fact not often talked about.

    Independent business owners without a four-year degree now outnumber those with a bachelor’s degree or higher, the SurveyMonkey small-business survey shows. A solid quarter of independent business owners had up to a high school diploma. Add in respondents with associate’s degrees or with some college and the number shoots up to 56 percent — more than half of all respondents.

    I agree we need to be smarter. And I agree we need greatly improved public education. And I agree that all students with the aptitude for college studies should be subsidized to allow them to achieve their potential. But I do not agree with free college for everyone. Free college as I said is not going to be a panacea. Americans in particular have tons of benefits and options to achieve their potential so why does a huge percentage of Americans fail to achieve much more than mediocrity?

    Perhaps not primary niches but for the foreseeable future agriculture and manufacturing will be strong parts of the US economy. And both of these areas can grow if we desire. Especially agriculture, in which the US can be a major exporter and huge contributor to GDP. In fact, agriculture is a great place for kids who don't have the aptitude for college studies but possess an entrepreneurial spirit and are hard workers!

    We have a need for higher educated people but we also have a need for all other people...there is a balance in the economy. We must assist those who can achieve higher educations and we must assist those who take other non-educational paths...
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You named about 0% of US corporations.

    Apple got started by 3 people, not 1. Woz had an electrical engineering degree from UCBerkeley. The other person had post high school technical training as well as organizational experience at Atari.

    You point out that Gates bailed on Harvard. However, he grew up with a father who was nationally known as a major US lawyer specializing in world trade, especially in Asia. And, his mother was on the boards of directors of a number of major corporations. Just eating dinner in that household and having the business backing of his parents would be more than most 4 year graduates in business related fields could match.

    Plus, we shouldn't just limit to the very few at the inception - the single name we know. Those companies are successful because they started with a small team of educated talent to organize, provide technology, understand marketing and legal, etc.

    Plus, let's not forget that even today getting hired by these companies without a college degree is not easy.
     
  19. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I didn't name anyone...the information was from a survey.

    It clearly stated "Independent business owners without a four-year degree now outnumber those with a bachelor’s degree or higher, the SurveyMonkey small-business survey shows. A solid quarter of independent business owners had up to a high school diploma. Add in respondents with associate’s degrees or with some college and the number shoots up to 56 percent — more than half of all respondents."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/16/15-...quire-employees-to-have-a-college-degree.html

    A personal friend of mine has worked at Apple and Facebook and others, doing design and coding work, and is a high school dropout with no college...the article above describes today's landscape...
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You named Apple, Facebook and Microsoft.

    Microsoft doesn't "require" technical employees to have a college degree, either. However, for such a person to land a technical position would be a surprising feat most likely supported by significant work product that would show something even more than a college degree would show.

    Such people exist. The fact that Microsoft doesn't round file all technical applicants that don't have a college degree doesn't mean they lowered the bar for employment.

    Also, the methodology and actual questions of this survey don't seem to be available at least from the CNBC article that it looks like you quoted. Nothing is said concerning the success of the businesses polled or the number of people they employ. It doesn't take a college education to sell Motorcycle parts online (like the example business in the article.) But, that's going to employ almost nobody, and their existence today isn't a significant measure of success. Also, the article seems to skew against education in the way they present discount two year degrees, for example.

    While not directly pertaining to this discussion, the CNBC article on this topic notes that people without college degrees tend to be less mobile in the job market. One of the problems we've seen is that our job market is moving rapidly. Auto manufacturing worker jobs dried up, moving toward automation jobs for which traditional auto workers don't qualify. Etc. As jobs dead end more rapidly, those who focused on a single form of work to the exclusion of general education are in a worse position.
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    The good news, if people desire, is they can become retrained and reeducated in months to 1-2 years. The bad news is most sit around waiting for someone else to solve their problems! Further, many people refuse to relocate to more active job centers. The days of getting a job at some company and working for 30 years until retirement is long gone! The days of lower prices and affordability of essential things like housing and transportation and healthcare, etc. are long gone! People must be able to make adjustments when life throws them a curve, and if they don't, they will spend the remainder of their lives miserable and left wanting. It's simply the nature of the beast in the relationship between the economy, the job market, inflation, and the decisions all of us make in life...
     
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  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Manufacturing has openings for those who can design, build, install, operate automated systems. Most of that requires real engineering work, in competition with engineers who are coming out of schools with those degrees, which often includes experience, as schools often require internships to graduate. Suggesting someone can compete with those coming out of school in 1 to 2 years isn't being realistic.

    I DO agree that we need continuing education. People can't wait for their job to evaporate before including education. And, allowing large gaps in ones education causes serious setbacks when trying to reenter. I think the "continuing" part of that is important. Regardless of the field, jobs that include a significant education component tend to be changing fast enough that hoping you've learned enough is just not an option.
     
  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Which is largely misleading.

    [​IMG]

    By looking at this image, it includes pretty much every town over around 2,000 people. It even includes the congested and overcrowded metropolitan city of Winnemucca, Nevada (population 7,700). And even Burns, Oregon (population 2,700).

    I think that claim of "80%" really means "they live in a city with at least 1 stop light".

    So yea, I have seen that number before, and consider it completely bogus. Simply looking at some of those "urban areas", and all I can do is shake my head and laugh at the claim that they are even remotely "urban".

    Maybe they have an Urban Outfitter store?

    Naw, that can't be it. Because Montpelier, Idaho is counted as an "Urban Area". And it's population of 2,500 never had one of those. And the largest industry is agriculture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I've asked this before and will ask again; why do tens of millions of Americans earn at or below $35K/year? Approximately 75-80 million Americans are in this category. When society can answer this question, and when society has some answers of how to better educate/train these 80 Americans, then we will know what society needs to do to create a smarter and more productive path for people...
     
  25. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    If you don't like how your government defines 'urban' then write to your government representative.

    https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural.html
     

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