UFOs are far more likely terrestrial in origin.

Discussion in 'Science' started by bricklayer, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Well we think we do. The problem is putting it to the test. There might be some experiments in QM that could be done where the 'arrow of time' is observed to change however transiently. Apart from that?
     
  2. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    In WW1 pilots developed a saying to "watch the hun in the sun" because they would position themselves in the sky so that the sun was behind them thus hiding themselves in the glare.

    The same concept applies in space and there are plenty of large objects to hide behind. They could nudge a comet out of the Oort Cloud and use the head and the tail as a means to shield themselves as they approached the earth.

    There would be plenty of cameras trained on the comet but NONE of them would be able to see what was BEHIND the comet. It would take a space probe to intersect the comet and they are not exactly sitting on shelves waiting to be deployed every time a new comet is detected.

    So yes, aliens could easily get within close range of the earth undetected.
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    General Relativity has been around for 100 years and it has never been in error. And this time machine concept comes directly from GR. So it takes quite a leap of faith to think this wouldn't work.

    We observe time dilation due to gravity regularly and even have to compensate for this in satellites. The only difference is that around a black hole, the gravity and resulting frame dragging is much greater. So really it gets tested every day and GR has never been wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I said "SOL travel and cloaking, etc. including worm holes and other yet to be known physics"...cloaking meaning physically invisible...worm holes which are an untested theory...and 'unknown physics' meaning stuff we don't yet know about. My main question was about the size of an ET vessel? Will it be an unET'd scout ship or a monster vessel? The prior maybe being undetectable and the latter probably detectable?

    If 'others' visit Earth and the Solar System, and we never know of their existence, then for all practical purposes they don't exist. If 'others' visit and make themselves known, then and only then will we have the answer to UFO's. Meanwhile we might discover intelligent ET's in other ways but even if they exist it does not mean we have been visited. Further, if there are not some 'yet unknown physics' that specifically apply to near-SOL travel or other dimensions, wormholes, etc., then it is unlikely ET's have visited Earth...
     
  5. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    If it was traveling faster than light speed, it would not be possible to see it coming. And wormholes are not unknown physics but it is unknown to you. ;)

    And the point was, could we see it coming? That doesn't require a cloak. That only requires optical Stealth at most. Even today we are toying with optical cloaking.

    Beyond that, UFOs have been detected by RADAR many many many times.
     
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  6. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    It is also most likely that we would see robotic probes. Like us, ETs would likely send robots to explore space.
     
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  7. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    My comments were about science fiction of SOL travel and cloaking and are not based in reality as we know it.
    Wormholes are speculation at best and no one knows if they exist. Wormholes are 100% unknown physics.
    Can you identify something that has been 'optically cloaked'? This means a physical thing becomes invisible?
    Sorry but the only way to verify a true ET UFO is to have some actual evidence...radar does not provide this verification...
     
  8. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately I don't think its that simple. 'Hun in the sun' worked because the from the perspective of either pilot you had what amounts to an almost strait line of attack i.e. one plane at a higher altitude dives in on another at an angle determined by their differences in altitude and the height of the sun in the sky at the time.

    As far as I understand orbital mechanics there is no such thing as a 'straight line of attack'. This is because the earth moves in a circular orbit around the sun while at the same time the comet or asteroid, like any other moving body in the solar system (not subject to propulsion) is also subject to gravity and moves in its own curved orbit. This means we see all moving bodies at an angle other than zero i.e. side on - which is why we can get such good images of a comets tail for instance.

    Within certain broad parameters your alien object would be detectable for instance as a 'hot' spike' in the tail fit the comet or via other detection systems. And of course our sensors are only getting better and better with each passing decade. I don't know for sure but depending on its size it might even distort the tail due to its presence in the gas stream (sort of like a large pebble in a stream).

    You could I suppose sneak a smaller sized in near near the side of a larger body and their is one technique we know off that would keep it 'cold'. You could it up with a big enough supply of cryogenic coolant (say liquid hydrogen) which circulates around the surface of the probe to keep it near local local ambient temperature and then vent into outer space carrying away the excess heat with it. That would work I suppose - until thee supply of coolant ran out.

    So I'm not saying its impossible - just very difficult. And of course the more often you do it thee more likely you are to be discovered.
     
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  9. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Yes but none of the above relates directly to time travel. You are spot on when you state that the time dilation effect postulated in (Special Relativity) has been proven time and time again by experiments conducted on and above Earth. But proof of time dilation does not equate automatically to proof of time travel. The former states that time passes at different rate according to the frame of reference of the observer. The arrow of time is still pointing in the same direction for both parties, it is not reversed.

    General Relativity which introduces the concept of singularities (black holes) and allows for the the theoretical effect you are describing. I just note two complications, firstly GR breaks down when attempting to describe the geometry of space/time at the edge of a singularity. Secondly GR and Quantum Gravity are currently incompatible i.e. they don't talk to each other so we don't have a unified theory of physics that explains gravity so as such GR is regarded as an 'incomplete ' theory of space/time.

    Which is why I stated that to prove some of the best known time travel 'thought experiments' relating to objects traveling round rotating black holes it would probably be necessary to test them for real. Least-ways at the moment, anytime now someone could make a breakthrough in theoretical physics that makes it unnecessary.
     
  10. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Too many encounters with our military by eyes and electronic .

    Something is here and we cannot touch it due to its tech.
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Which doesn't mean the origin has to be extra-terrestrial. If alien they apparently have no problem with being observed while at the same time showing no interest in communicating. They've traveled hundreds of light years for the privilege of flying around around aimlessly while at the same time not leaving so much as the alien equivalent of an empty beer can or candy wrapper behind to prove they were here. In 70 odd years of UFO sightings not even one verifiable piece of crashed or discarded alien tech, no proven landing sites, no biological traces, no forensic evidence of any kind. Clumsy enough to be seen but so cunning they leave no trace behind otherwise. And lastly nothing they 'do' makes any sense, there's no observable pattern, plan or motive to their actions. Its certainly not scientific research - if they are aliens they behave more like joy riding teenagers than hyper intelligent beings from another word.

    Until such time as someone tries. Show one recent, FLIR or high end video clip of an 'encounter' where the military pilots involved have tried to intercept or been given permission engage with weapons. Like ground based systems. In most instances there will be good reason why this cant be done i.e. proximity to civilian populations but in every case?
     
  12. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Dont know where these craft hail from but military encounters are irrefutable .

    The Iranian event where the jet pilot cclosed on one as different radar saw it as well as the pilot before the jet lost electronics and power and then getting it all back happenef.

    Then the second navy pilots could see the tic tac as his god's eye radar picked it up as his camera in different modes but once he tried to use his targeting radar on one of them it was jammed So it ccould avoid being targeted.

    Obviously they dont mind being seen by eyes and our high tech. They seem to be only watching us. Like military operations.

    Perhaps some physicists are right and consciousness is fundamental with it being the creator of reality and we have created these craft that are as real as the tree in our yards.

    For they exist as that is a fact.No one knows where they originate . Nor their motives. But they want to be seen as they navigate at night with bright lights.

    We can logically surmise they are not bellicose.But little more than that.

    But their existence cannot be denied.And yet the professional debunkers have lost that fight at least for reasonable people.


    Yet the ufo community are chock full of nuts who make claims they have met them and know their purpose. And they dont agree and fight like hell.

    This doesn't help matters. And if these beings are creating hybrids part human why would they tell so many abductees? Lol

    It is a fact that one later astronaut told us that .one landed on a us base while the base was filming something for the airforce and this film crew filmed it landing and then taking off. The astronaut was told to get ready for a courier to pick it up. But he viewed part of the film and saw the craft on that film.

    I dont think you are fully aware of all of the evidence involved or you dont seem to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, wormholes are still totally speculative. And, the odds aren't increased by other speculationn or by the issue of the incompleteness of physics.

    I liked your earlier post that pointed out that we (engineers in the US) are undoubtedly working on all sorts of stuff aimed at increasing difficulty of detection and probably other strategies involving perception and detection, as well as the drone experiments they are clearly doing.

    I don't believe we we're so bereft of explanations that we need to leap to secret interstellar travelers.
     
  14. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    We don't know the odds. You can dance around the facts all you want but it doesn't change anything. The odds could be virtually 100% that we will be visited many times by many races.

    How much time have you spent studying the subject? In my experience, most people have far more opinions than knowledge.

    Name three highly compelling cases.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    An issue that crops up with supporters of the UFO'S are alien visitors from another planet theory is that they will turn the argument around and insist that examples of alleged visitations/sightings be disproved.

    That simply not how the logic of the debate works. Supporters of this theory are the ones asserting that it is in fact correct/true. This means its up to them to prove their assertions. It is not the job of of disbelievers or agnostics (myself included) to prove them wrong.

    And the biggest stumbling block they face is the total absence to date of physical evidence supporting their theory. Again no physical or forensic evidence of landings, alien technology or biology ever. And images captured via high resolution cameras/radar etc are not evidence of alien visitation per se. It is simply evidence that something unidentified or unexplained has been recorded - explanation unknown.

    So until such time as evidence is located this assertion remains unproved, end of story.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm pretty skeptical on this topic.
    I just said odds aren't being increased in the way suggested.

    There is no evidence of interstellar travel - which is a serious barrier.
    There IS evidence of major corporations from various countries working on stupendous drones and other vehicles.
    None of these UFOs have ever been found.

    We should exhaust possible Earthly explanatins before we start assuming there are sentient beings so far ahead of us that they can avoid the limits of physics that we find to be so concrete and universal.
     
  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    It's all speculation. Earthlings can't even visit another planet in our Solar System, which is all the knowledge we have, so assuming 'others' can travel around the Universe like they're on a 2-week vacation is truly pie-in-the-sky thinking. Based on what Earthlings know, the odds are quite low that there have been ET's visiting. Many think what we know can't be all there is so we assume there must be SOL travel or wormhole travel or whatever travel...welll...maybe not??
     
  18. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    There are no UFOs but these are black ops things
    An alien visitor would come in non organic variety and be nano sizes
     
  19. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Can't comment on the 'black ops' side of your comment. There are undoubtedly a lot of 'Skunk Works' type projects being undertaken by developed nations around the World. However as far as nano-tech sized extraterrestrial objects are concerned there are (at least) three potentially overwhelming problems.

    Firstly is the problem of getting here. Assuming nano sized objects were sent on an interstellar mission to our solar system. In the absence of some kind of FTL technology like wormholes a nano scale device simply wouldn't survive the trip to Earth.

    Forgetting for a moment things like intervening dust and gas particles there are the long term radiation effects to consider. If you take the 'slow' road and disperse billions of nano particles in one go towards a prospective target they will take millions of years to get here based on the (the very real likelihood) that there are no technological civilizations within a couple of hundred light years of Earth. During this time your nano particle will collide with all of the above mentioned gas/dust particles and photons over the entire length of their journey.

    Speed up the rate of travel to relativistic speeds and you simply increase the kinetic energy effects of every 'impact' along the way. At high proportions of C the radiation effects alone will fry any nano device long before it got here. Basically the choice would between a long slow death for the nanos or a quick/fast one.

    The second problem is that while nano tech is potentially incredibly useful the small size of the devices involves fundamentally limits what each device can do. You want a nano device that measures and analyzes radiation output in a narrow range of frequencies no problem. Another that measures atmospheric pressure again no problem. Something that measures the chemical compounds found in a particular sample of water again possibly doable.

    The basic issue is that large, complicated machines (like elephants or any other multi-cellular organism ) are capable of performing numerous tasks simultaneously. Small machines (like bacteria) are by default limited to a few simple tasks e.g. intake nutrients, expel wastes and divide.

    Lastly there is the problem of getting the information you send back 'home' . You could potentially send a vast cloud of nano devises to Earth, each tasked with a different set of scientific objectives. But how do you get the data they record back home? Even if most of the devices are programmed as radio transmitters their collective power output isn't enough to get a signal back home -not over the hundreds of light years required.

    So unless your nano devises are deployed into orbit around the Earth by a larger, more complex machine like an AI controlled interstellar probe they don't really help.

    P.S. Sorry for being such a wet blanket but he simple fact is (as far as we are aware) it takes huge amounts of grunt travel interstellar distances and on their own nano particles cant deliver that grunt, at least not without revealing their presence (thin an veritable dust storm of particles sweeping in towards Earth and then passing onward and outward - given they would have no way of slowing down once they got here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  20. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Your response get me thinking about how would one go about "seeding life" on other planets?

    Presuming that you start with something like a virus or bacteria that can be freeze dried and can reactivate itself in the presence of liquid water then the most obvious method would be to encase it within a ferrous meteorite and project it out into space. The meteorite should provide sufficient protection from both impacts and radiation if it is large enough. Once it reaches a planet the bulk burns off on reentry and it then lands on the surface. Given that there is liquid water the remainder of the meteorite slowly rusts away until the dehydrated virus or bacteria comes into contact with the water. At that point it can resume it's life cycle.

    Granted the above is simplistic and utterly random. Billions would need to be produced for the odds of even one of them encountering a suitable planet and even then the odds are still astronomical of it actually surviving and multiplying.

    Furthermore no actual information is transmitted other than what might be encoded in RNA/DNA and there is no way to determine success or failure.
     
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  21. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Yes, assuming a civilization adopted this approach it would be strictly a one way, 'wing and a prayer' option. You send out the seed devices and everything after that is down to random chance. The civilization responsible would never know the outcome, they would not even know if it worked once, just once out of all the billions? of devices they sent out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  22. Gelecski7238

    Gelecski7238 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can't do this, can't do that, on and on...Earthly craft emerging from the sea can't do so without water draining off of them, but UFOs/USOs can. UFOs shouldn't be able to tinker with our nuclear launch codes, but they can.
     
  23. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Can they? Wheres the proof? particularly regarding the 'tinker with our nuclear launch codes' thingy'.

    For the rest sorry but the only yardstick we have have to measure what an alien space craft might do if we encounter it is what we know about physics now and then projecting forwards as far is realistic.

    There are lots of speculative interstellar drives talked about in popular literature and we know or think we know a lot about how they would look in real life - up to and including wormholes and other forms of FTL. We simply haven't detected any UFO's demonstrating those characteristics, ever.

    For the rest if they are so advanced we cannot even begin to grasp their technology then they are also extraordinarily bad at operating it because we keep detecting them anyway, not to mention the frankly aberrant behavior they demonstrate when they get here i.e. their key interests seem to be random fly byes, drag races with other and the odd anal probing.
     
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  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Either the building blocks of life as we know it exists everywhere or they are transported similarly to what you describe in your comments above. If life as we know it can develop on Earth, then it can develop anywhere in which the environment and luck gives it a chance. IMO the most significant variable is how long living beings can survive natural disasters and/or self-annihilation...based on how things are going here on Earth I'll guess these life-periods are relatively short...
     
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    agree, they may have come to Earth in the past, but if they were here today, it would be hard to keep secret
     

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