UK after leaving the EU.

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by william walker, Oct 13, 2016.

  1. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    History and cultural identity.

    Social and political injustice.

    Economics.


    History/culture. We are the UK, from Caesar through Spanish Armada, through Napoleon and Hitler, this country has always stood against a single unified European state. We are raised to think of these people as evil and their goals to be evil. Millions of us have died to prevent this, and people alive can remember their names and faces. We seek to honour our dead.
    We have a world famous national identity already. British. We don't feel we need to join with anyone to get an embassy in their country. We already have them everywhere. We are already global actors in our own right, we don't need a team up.
    No matter how glorious the EU becomes, our culture and history has already eclipsed it.
    We are a liberal country we believe liberalism to be the opposite of socialism. We aren't politically compatible.

    Social and political injustice.
    We democratically voted not to join the EU. Multiple times.
    Democracy was not respected. People were not being represented by their MPs.
    We elected MEPs directly, they were elected to get us out of the EU. They were unable to. A mockery of democracy.

    Sovereignty had been given way. We couldn't hold anyone to account as they would simply blame their counter parts in the EU and vice versa.
    Socially, bad laws were passed, people with no interest in the continent were being enforced to live by continental rules in exchange for things they simply made no use of. Didn't want.
    Money was being redistributed from us, to complete strangers in exchange for nothing.
    Mass migration caused serious economic issues for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society in exchange for the gains of the richest and most well off.

    Economics.
    We have a bad deal currently. Trade at a loss and pay taxes for the privilege. Waste valuable time and money with EU compliance for businesses that do not even export to it.
    Our primary exports, banking services, are not even covered by the EU single market anyway.
    So we get all the disadvantages and none/few of the advantages that other nations receive from this.
    No new markets have been opened to us except Eastern Europe. We already traded with them all anyway.
    Eastern European trade access has more to do with the end of the USSR than it odes the rise of the EUSSR, as they call it.
     
  2. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    None of you seem to have the faintest idea what WTO rules would mean for Britain.
    There is no way it could be completely wonderful.

    http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry/
     
  3. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    But you do I take it?
    Why not enlighten us.

    For me it is about restoring a better trade balance. Making a profit on all those billions we trade with the EU. That is after all the whole point of us trading with them at all.

    A butt load of loss making trade? Just makes us poorer. The more we do, the poorer we get.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  4. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    German President says that leaving the UK will be the biggest loss of sovereignty the UK or rather England and Wales will ever have

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...esident-attacks-irresponsible-brexit-campaign
     
  5. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    100,000 finance jobs in London are likely to be lost, creating a domino effect losing 230,000 UK wide warnings

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...juncker-euro-clearing-eu-manfred-weber-brexit
     
  6. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    Spot on, Montegriffo. If we hadn't joined the EU we'd be pretty much fished out by now at the rate our fishermen were going.The only time since the late 19th century that North Sea cod stock stopped declining, for example, was during the two World Wars, when fishing was reduced, and they were still declining when we joined the EU.

    The CFP has been reformed a bit since we joined the EU, (and mainly at the behest of the UK, I believe) and it is a fallacy that any responsible sovereign Government would not impose quotas or net size regulations themselves(though that assumes Westminster being responsible as well as sovereign)

    UK fishing boats fish in the waters of other EU countries, as well as in our own and can fish to an extent within the 12 mile limit of at least four other EU countries and "UK" fishing boats get 30% of the EU quota despite only having 13% of the total sea area (ie UK EEZ compared to the entire EU EEZ, but not including territorial waters). But we seem always to forget that, if there are too many perceived foreign boats fishing in "our" waters....that would be because the companies that own them bought them from UK fishermen and with them the right to their fish quotas.

    I read somewhere (and noted for future reference) that the consolidation of fishing into the hands of relatively few companies by the UK's post 1999 quota system, which,( surprise surprise), created a private market for the right to catch fish, had some parallels to the parliamentary enclosure of land in the 18th and 19th centuries....leading to the dispossession of hundreds of small boats which got less and less of the quota compared to the big ones, thus forcing them out of the industry. The policy has been described as much like tackling overgrazing by allocating property rights based on the number of cattle someone owns: ( Interesting read...must see if I can find the link again)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  7. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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  8. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    Foreign war is cool if USA win like second Iraq war and WW2 and WW1.
     
  9. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    Has the USA ever managed to win a war on it's own without help? The allies won WWI and WWII and I challenge any idea that the 2nd Iraq war has been won yet...it has only moved country.
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OMG

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/liam-fox-meets-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte

    Get that Referendum going Nicola, while we still have time. :eekeyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    Oddquine likes this.
  11. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    There will always be time for a Scottish Referendum.

    You don't honestly expect me to think you will stop crying for one after A50 ends do you?

    So no rush.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can believe from your posts that you may not have such a problem sharing values with Rodringo Duterte.
     
  13. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    If you say so. Can't honestly say I have ever heard of him however. So I'll have to let you be the judge.
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Big mistake replying to posts when you don't know what they are about - and you were replying to the post though you have a habit of not quoting it. Either you are for him or you have no sense of humour. Read the article. It will give you some idea.
     
  15. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    No, I think I'll continue to dismiss this one out of hand sorry.

    If you wish to elaborate on the values you feel I share with this man, go for it. If there is anything thought provoking in it, I'll consider addressing it.
    For what it is worth, I expect that I have a great many shared values with the peoples of the Philippines just as I do with people everywhere.
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your time wasting. Just putting out words without knowing what you are talking about or possibly just trolling. If you do not know what you are talking about obviously your word means very little.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  17. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Better to waste time than use it counter-productively.

    I know what I'm talking about, because I talk about myself. I limit my understanding to the prism of my own perceptions and experiences.
    I don't offer you fact only opinion.
    I don't offer you truth, only my perception of it.
    I do offer you honesty. It's the best I can do.

    Your article didn't grab me. The headline and the source made me snore. I am sorry.
    I'd much rather exchange pleasantries with you on some other one if possible.

    I'm thinking the guy in the Filipines is the one who called Obama a whore or his mum a pint or whatever. Funny bloke.
    He has problems with the US and China and being stuck in the middle of their sabre rattling. He also has issues with his fishermen vs Chinese fishermen.
    Drug policy? No idea. Kill them? Set them free? Not really my concern. I could believe either.
    If Liam Fox is there, hopefully that means he is going to be a good customer of ours. Or even his enemies perhaps. Maybe both.

    And since the article is in the Guardian, all of this will be a subject of much scorn and moral outrage.
    Do I really have to read it? No.
     
  18. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Only if you want your opinion to be treated seriously and not just as Ad Hominum.
    The issue under discussion is Liam Fox's praise for a man openly in support of non judicial executions not the validity of Guardian reporting.
     
  19. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the patience and good humour you show me by reading and especially responding to my posts, but I don't expect you to take me very seriously.
    For me politics is a hobby. A form of entertainment. I enjoy passing the time with people discussing such things.
    It keeps me up with the headlines.

    It's the validity of Guardian reporting that bores me. It's the subject matter.
    They are interested in the human rights story and in the paint the Tory a nazi supporter story.

    But I want to know who is sell what to who. In what numbers. How well they work.

    Not all the moral outrages of a bunch of rich snakes trying to make an oligarchy out of our democracy.
    No thanks. No moral lessons from you. Very very boring indeed.


    So Liam Foxes praises came with weapons sales or no weapon sales? Which ones to who, how many + any feedback or knock ons.
    That is an interesting story for me. The Guardian one is not going to be one for me. I CBA. I want Janes ideally. I'll see what they've got.

    Bah its' pretty paywall, here's a headline though

    Shifting fortunes: the Philippine Navy's latest spate of modernisation efforts hangs in the balance
    The Philippine Navy has been undergoing an unprecedented modernisation effort in recent years. Ridzwan Rahmat examines the service's current fleet recapitalisation programme and how it could be affected by the prevailing political climate
    http://www.janes.com/

    So I'm guessing naval work. New ships for sale, old ships for sale, new bits for ships old and new. (Yanks end up footing the bill indirectly).

    Plus if this guy is unlovable, we sell tear gas. All the dictators love our tear gas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  20. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Typically honest reply from you which is why I'm prepared to give you the time of day despite our obvious differences.
    However what bores me is this whole ''fake news'' narrative.
    I am open enough to see that the Guardian is hopelessly left wing in it's bias but also open enough to admit that they can bring up a salient point every now and again.
    I've been against selling the tools of oppression to dictators ever since Maggie sold water cannons to Pinochet so your purely financial arguments will, unlike said crowd control vehicles, hold no water.......
     
  21. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Fake news is a wholly dodgy area. I'd say intellectually, it's true it exists, but er Donald Trump. Slow down old son.

    I buy the odd Guardian. But it's not often my first choice. They are to me a lefty version of what Murdoch is to the lefties if you see where I'm coming from. The standard of reporting is very high, but the subject matter is limited in scope. They tend to cover things or the aspects of things that I'm not interested in.
    Commentry is good. Oppositions angle welcomed.
    But again too much subject matter I don't want to hear about. See headline...don't read on. Turn the page.
     
  22. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    I feel the same about the Mail, read headline move on.
    I tend to get my news from sites like this or the much maligned BBC. If I'm awake the radio is on and usually tuned to 5 live or radio 4.
    I don't buy newspapers very often at all. Only ever if I have a long train journey and forget to bring a book, on those rare occasions I buy the Independent because I find they are the best at giving information with the least opinion.
    I won't refuse to discuss immigration, for example, just because it is the Mail's go to subject though.....
     
  23. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    The Indy is interesting in that it's Russian owned. So they are big on anti America, but it is interesting to see how they respond to Putin. I wonder if they are dissidents here, or if they are company men.

    In truth I flip through most of most papers struggling to find much. I like foreign news and business pages and commentary mostly. So each has a little for me but not a lot.

    I'm Torygraph by habit. But not by any deep conviction.
    I might have tried 5 live on a commute job. that was OK. Enjoyed it. I don't really like to go to work all politicked up though.
    Music FTW.

    I also buy tabloids. The Sun or whatever else they've got.
    They have these funny little one line story's.

    Kitten in Shropshire saves fireman from a tree.

    That sort of thing. I love them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  24. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Pinochet gave us his radar intelligence during the Falklands war. We had early warning on each and every attack.
    In doing so he helped to save the lives of 10's of thousands of our troops and deliver us victory.

    He helped save our people, the Falkland Islander's, from the very fate you describe under Galtieri.

    We have an honour debt to General Pinochet. Be he man, monster or saint.
    Mrs Thatcher understood this. He was a friend.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  25. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    At the same time the USA was refusing to share some of it's intelligence with us for fear of looking like it was taking sides.
    I understand the milk snatcher's loyalty to Pinochet but it still left a bitter taste in my mouth.
     

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