Undemocratic?

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by WhiteSouthernDemocrat, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    I have to disagree. Since 90 to 95 percent of Americans are, ignorant, stupid, uneducated OR just plain nuts, I am NOT in favor of rule by such a majority.
     
  2. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    That is a shame but, at least I do not live in Sweden. America has to much democracy for me, lol.
     
  3. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Why leave out self-serving parasites?

    This isn't really a condemnation of the American People but merely a fact of nature that the founders of America considered in establishing the United States. They knew that the average person doesn't have the time or motivation to become informed about politics. Unfortunately they believed that elected representatives would be knowledgeable and that has proven to be false as well. With the dumbing down of America we've also seen the dumbing down of Congress as well.
     
  4. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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  5. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant article, brilliant thought!!
     
  6. kilgram

    kilgram New Member

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    I must autocorrec myself, when I wrote Sweeden, I wanted to say Switzerland, although it is true for Sweeden, too. But Sweeden is a monarchy.
     
  7. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    Agreed! The only way I can see to change it is to impliment a poll tax of, oh, say 20,000 every 4 years. This would eliminate the poor, uneducated and those unwilling to learn about the candidates and might, just might lead to an improved congress and president.
     
  8. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This would imply that the wealthy would be more knowledgeable than the less wealthy and that simply isn't the case. There doesn't seem to be any relationship between wealth and knowledge when it comes to our government.
     
  9. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    Then it is a really great thing I do not live in Switzerland! I could not stand any more democracy!!
     
  10. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    Nope, it does not imply anything, it states that those with the energy, intelligence and will to both earn money and spend it on voting will be more intelligent, concerned and able to vote logically, and with the interest of the nation, instead of with total ignorance.
     
  11. CanadianEye

    CanadianEye Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really? I always thought it was amazing that the state of California has singularly a greater GDP than my country, and many, many others. Other states are GDP wise greater than many nations, great and small, of the world as well.

    Not a good idea to stand alone in any event, but I suppose it would not be impossible for a state to handle itself in power, money and ability in the world theatre. Texas, NY, Illiinois, Florida all pretty big dogs on the global scale.
     
  12. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    BTW Article IV Section 4 of the US Constitution requires all States to have a Republican, not democratic, form of government. There is no need for any State Constitution to mention that which is required to establish by the US Constitution. All State Constitutions are subordinate to the US Constitution.

    As also noted Article V of the US Constitution empowers the States to modify through Amendment the US Constitution without the consent of the US government and the States can, through the amendment process, complete dissolve the United States just as the States created it in 1786 when they abolished the Articles of Confederation to form the United States.

    Sovereignty remains with the individual States and the US government is merely a political construct created by the States and ulitmately subject to the will of the sovereign States.
     
  13. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty lame if you ask me. Their first illustration , given top billing

    Absurd. Marriage doesnt create any parental rights in the case of a same sex couple. ONLY in the case of an opposite sex couple are parental rights created for the husband, the presumptive father of the child.
     
  14. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting, how some people have a very difficult time realizing and accepting that.

    And if it were not so, this nation would NOT be the "America" we know it to be.
     
  15. CanadianEye

    CanadianEye Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Finished reading a couple of weeks ago Mr. Becks book on the Federalist Papers. Your countries origins and foundations are fascinating.
     
  16. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Actually same-sex couples do have parental rights as several courts have determined. For example:

    http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_5c93a844-b2b8-11de-aa51-001cc4c002e0.html

    The problem is that they are denied all of the same Rights as opposite-sex couples when they are denied the right to marry.
     
  17. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Your linked to article has nothing to do with marriage, or even homosexuals, other than the fact that the parties were homosexual.No surprise you try to dump some more BS on top of the previous BS, hoping no one will notice all the BS.
     
  18. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Also required reading are the anti-federal papers that were the opposite side of the coin. In the end both came together in a compromise but trusting one argument while ignoring the rebuttal arguments presents a false picture of the times. It is some great reading though and much can be learned from it.
     
  19. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    This primitive stupidity found in the original Constitution is why I believe a new Constitutional convention should be called and a new, modern and better constitution be written. The ignorance of the states being able to disband the federal govt is the first thing that needs to go.
     
  20. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I will defer to the legal experts on this and the evidence they've presented in court related to Prop 22 and Prop 8 in California. The evidence presented wasn't even contested by the proponents of Prop 8 that the Rights of same-sex couples were being violated. In the original article I presented legal experts established that parental Rights are being violated with the prohibition of same-sex marriage under the mini-DOMA's that many States have adopted and that individuals are being denied due process of the law because of these mini-DOMA's. Parental Rights were identified as one of those Rights being denied due process and nothing has been presented that actually argues against this conclusion by legal experts.
     
  21. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The same argument could be made for nations giving up sovereignty under the United Nations and ignores that sovereignty really resides with the individual and not with any government entity created by the People.

    Of course I blame this ignorance on our education systems that fail to address the establishment of government based upon the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution. The States, which were previously colonies, each became sovereign nations at the conclusion of the American Revolution. First they attempted a confederacy of sovereign nations under the Articles of Confederation. They did not forfeit their sovereignty in doing so. Later the adopted the US Constitution but once again they did not forfeit their sovereignty.

    The United States government was a contracted political entity created by sovereign States. It remains that today and ultimately the States, according to the powers granted to the States in Article V, still maintain sovereign control over the US government. The States can change the roles and responsibilities of the US government whenever they believe need dictates and they can also abolish the Constitution if they believed that was in the best interests of their citizens.
     
  22. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    As you abandon like a cheap suit, what you touted as a

    Typical
     
  23. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Actually I defer to University of Michigan Law School Professor Steve Sanders who is much more knowledgeable than anyone on this forum.

    I'm relatively sure that Professor Sanders has valid legal reasons for making these statements. The issue of these mini-DOMA's is due process of the law that is being denied related to numerous issues including inheritance, property rights and parental rights. No evidence or facts have been provided that establish what he is saying isn't true.
     
  24. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Before you mentioned mini-DOMA's in this forum, it wasn't a concept I'd considered.

    Thanks!
     
  25. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

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    The US does not give up sovereignty by participating in the UN. Making treaties and agreements with other nations is a part and parcel of what a nation receives sovereignty for. By the way, no, individuals do NOT have any sovereignty at all. Nations make decisions and have the sovereignty to make agreements and treaties. NOT individuals.
    And yes, historically the US was a contracted agreement between 13 states. The fact is we now have 50 states and a NEW Constitutional convention should be held, taking into account that in this modern world, NOT state can stand on its on, No state has the power to defend its borders, run its governments, and protect its people. This is a modern world and the time for outdated state politics is long past - we are ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE and our constitution should reflect that. No group of states should have the power to withdraw, which is a stupid concept in our current constitution.
    we currently have many conflicting ammendments to the constitution and they need to be eliminated, and a new constitution formed. LETS have a NEW constitutional convention.
     

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