Universal Salvation, is everybody eventually led back to heaven/paradise/love?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DennisTate, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mr. Christian Andreason, when attempting to put his astonishing near death experience into terms that all of us can relate to presented a powerful case...that yes....we will eventually all be "saved" and brought back into a state of mind of light and love!

    For the time being it seems that differences in opinion over various doctrines is one of the greatest tests that we religious people face?!

    Christian Andreason, Chapter 3:
    http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The NDE of George Ritchie that he had in 1943 played a significant role in getting Dr. Raymond Moody interested in this topic.

    http://www.near-death.com/ritchie.html
    .......
    Maybe we religious types need to work on the level of anger that we experience when somebody disagrees with us?????
     
  3. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I 'personally' believe that there is what is called 'the total restoration of creation,' where fallen creation is restored just as the last chapter of the last book in the scriptures (Rev) shows a tree of life in the middle of the garden (as in Genesis) with 'living water' (a type of Jesus Christ) proceeding from it.

    But..there will be separation and punishment for a time (eons??) of the rebellious from God, and what portion of the refined thru the fires (torment, i.e. separation from their Creator) to be restored I cannot say...one of several mysteries in the scriptures that 'we' are not to know until 'the time.'

    I prefer to look at accepting the work of Jesus Christ on the cross as applied to my sins as a kind of 'Get Out of Jail FREE" card---'saved' by his grace and not of my works. As He is called the Door and no one shall enter w/o going thru Him, those w/o the 'Card of Grace' will have to be judged on their works, meaning those who even knew not of him, will have to go thru a trial with the evidence being their life entirety.
     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Excellent reply OverDrive!!!

    Over the past two years I was shown what I perceive as an explanation for branches of time, the idea of time looking far more so like a menorah, than as a straight line as we tend to suppose, which will provide my friends with an answer for what can seem at first to be a contradiction!

    If you have Christian friends and you would like to be able to explain this concept to them in a way that they can understand it I recommend beginning with Ezekiel chapter 37.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eze&c=37&v=1&t=KJV#top

    Ezekiel 37:1 ¶ "
    Every moment in what you and I think of as the past, is real, does exist and has been recorded on a form of energy that is far beyond DVD technology or any type of recording device that we know of so far.

    Our Creator the Ancient of Days the FAther, and the Ancient of Days the Mother, and the for all intents and purposes nearly as ancient the Logos/Word/Messiah, have the power to energize a moment in the past....reproduce everybody and everything that existed in that moment in the past....and then spin off a totally new and unique branch of time....that usually is vastly less violent than another branch of time that may already have occured thousands of years ago.

    If you have any interest in theoretical physics you will find some quotations here at my blog that may help to explain this but I feel I should leave you with one quotation that verifies that the fundamental energy, that ultimately composes everything that exists in our material universe is off the scale unimaginably powerful.

    http://www.carbonbias.blogspot.ca/

    From 1980 to 1983 Helen Wambach PhD and Dr. Chet Snow hypnotized and PROGRESSED over 2000 volunteers into what they perceived to be the future. A map was drawn of what the USA would look like by January 1, 2013, in that branch of time that they saw!

    My theory is that what they saw, did probably actually occur in the fairly distant past but to them they perceived all of this as our future?!

    I regard the Dr. Chet Snow study as probably ultimately being replicable, verifiable, anecdotal evidence that Ezekiel 37 is an event that happens again and again and again in order for God our Father and the Holy Spirit and our Messiah to lead all of us to salvation?!

    If this theory is an error, my apologies, but this is the best that I can do with all this at this time!

    http://www.baproducts.com/chetmap.htm

     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I agree that there is punishment and our attitudes produce some pretty terrible consequences!

    During the first part of his NDE former atheist Howard Storm met a group of people who seemed to have been devoid of any natural emotions or compassion for others!

    I read his book My Descent Into Death about two years ago. It was convincing to say the least!

    http://www.near-death.com/storm.html
     
  6. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    no there will be eternal torment for the workers of iniquity.
     
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  7. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Its a trick question.

    We, humanity in general, as a soecies will advance into the future as partners with the Force behind the ever unfolding Reality.

    We, as a species will not become extinct, because we are able to image the Reality that is unfolding, adapt to it, anfd thereby successfully Adapt to the Environment.
    But this does not preclude the weeding out of societies that do not behave in accord with The Truth and which attempt to set up imaginary fantasy social system that defy and oppose the Truth.

    Those peoples and their systems of things will just disappear, almost unnoticed by the advancements made by those societies that face the Facts-of-life and continue on.
     
  8. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    This is the major flaw in modern religion.

    The situation presently is that tere is a dozen major mainstream teachings about what the Bible supposedly is telling us.
    None of the members of these congregations care to examine the other teachings as equally valid but also wrong "book reports" on the scriptures.
    Each group is absolutely certain that when the messiah comes, he will explin the Bible and its meaning the same way their organization does.

    Hence, at least eleven very large organizations wil either disappointed or completely oppose and fight withthe real messiah.
    Theu will call him a devil, they will say he is wrong, they try to silence him among their friends, children, relatives.

    They will in fact, act much as the Pharisees in 32AD.

    The logical conclusion is that all the present interpretations are wrong, and that when the messiah comes, some thing will be right and some things wrong.
    But the great whole will be so different from what is now really archaic,medieval repeats of things stated centuries ago.
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have been told that the word forever in Hebrew should really be translated something along the line of "until the end of conditions last."
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I myself went through my Pharisee phase!

    Being a Christians who at least attempts to observe the Jewish weekly and annual Sabbaths and avoid pork and shellfish can have the effect of making us proud.


    http://www.heaven.net.nz/visions/the-hordes-of-hell-are-marching.htm
    Been there....done that....got the T-shirt.....no desire to go back there thank you!!!!

    By the way....scroll down to the section entitled The Judgment Seat of Christ.....it is one of the few Christian visionary-dreams that I have read that could be compared with the calibre of the near death experience accounts....that I regard as nothing less than a direct meeting with The Word/Logos....

    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm
    [6]
     
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From what I have read on the paranormal, the time is coming when we will be able to see what a part of our soul/spirit did, when it was placed in a child to be raised in a vastly different culture and set of religious teachings.

    Each of us is unique....in heaven both Elijah as well as John the Baptist are both there...and they both have been learning and growing to know God better and better and better since the time of their deaths...but I am convinced that a part of Elijah was placed within John the Baptist much as we can take a memory stick from one computer and plug it into another computer hundreds or thousands of miles away from the original computer??!! Anything that we can do God can do MUCH MUCH better....and the full truth of what Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua meant when he said that John the Baptist was somehow "Elijah" will play a huge role in ALL NATIONS....and all flesh....coming to a place where we are all humble....and only God is exalted.

    I believe that all of us will come to the place where we will openly talk about any mistake or error that we made in the past...in order to encourage and uplift and inspire anybody....who is in danger of getting overly discouraged or swallowed by guilt or shame.

    In a sense.....the memories of our past .....may bother us some.....but once we attain the humility necessary to use our sins and errors and acts of evil to encourage others.....we will have a greater level of peace of mind than can be gained during this human life!!!
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Extremely well written CupidDave!!!

    In the visions of a future, as seen by volunteers progressed into the future from 1980 - 1983 several different major types of societies came to dominate life within two or three centuries:

    http://dwij.org/forum/future_link/future7.htm
    Mass Dreams of the Future: An Overview from 2001

    Chet B. Snow, Ph.D.
     
  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Howard Storm was shown that what the Jewish people would call the Era of Moshiach/Messiah is planned to be ushered in within two centuries through a pouring out of more and more of the Holy Spirit..the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts!!!

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html
    Former atheist Howard Storm:
     
  14. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Logos means "word."
    It is singular.

    It refers to the one word Christ personified in 32AD.
    Christ told them and us, that Truth is that one word that saves humnity from extinction.

    This is obvious today as realize that all species must find ways to Adapt to the ever changing and unfolding Reality that confronts all life.
    For man, knowing the Truth so he can anticipate the future and hence, adapt, is his salvation:


    John1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, (Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (indistinguishable from Reality), God, (the almighty for all men).

    2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of material Reality in what was the actiual physical Creation).

    Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence, (for man), through him, (i.e.; this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (for men).



    (Truth is inside us, contained in the genetic memories of our Unconscious mind)
     
  15. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    then tell the forum something good about adolf hitler
     
  16. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    He was merely the agent of the simile of crucifixion for Israel, i.e.; the first born "son of God," which was the Ram caught in the thicket.
    Israel itself was the suffering messiah that was to be "crucified" for our sins of imtolerance.
    The Jews were chosen for this very moment in our history so that Never Again will Christians allow ethnic cleansing:

    Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a “ram,” (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
    and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the “ram, ” (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’”]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God:) in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).


    Exodus 4:22
    Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
     
  17. Woody

    Woody New Member

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    Your attempts to prove the Bible with itself does not tell us anything good about Hitler.
     
  18. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    ?

    The prophecies do support the contention that sociology follows directly from the colletuve behavior of people which is the major concern of the Bible.
    It seems fair to at least make a case for the historical outcomes the can be observed and compare them with the implied predictions that would follow if the Sociological theories at work have any validity.

    We grant this same empiricism to other sciences.
    The hypothesis are extended into theories only when controlled experiments are set up which can are will be duplicated, always verifying the same expected results.

    We see in Genesis 22 that Abraham offers his only son, but the son is saved from death at the last moment.
    This is followed by the inference that Israel, also the only begotten son, is also offered up, but saved too, at the last moment, a remanent is allowed back into the promised Land:


    Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt ([nacah: try, prove]; use to show) Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am, (a parody of the name of God, himself, YHVH; [Exodus 3:14]).

    Gen. 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, (as I shall take my own), thine only son, (as shall I take my only son), Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, (a hill, like Golgotha, the place of the Skull, in Palestinia); and offer him there, (symbolically transferring guilt and sin to him; [Luke 24:47]), for a burnt offering, (a sin offering), upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

    Gen. 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his asssss, (as would Jesus ride into Jerusalem to be crucified: [John 12:14]) and took two ([Matt 27:38]) of his young men, (as witnesses, as would Jesus take Mary and John to witness the Cross), clave the wood, (as if the pieces of the cross of Isaac's crucifixion), for the burnt offering, (the Jewish ritual for the transferal of sin; [Luke 24:47]), and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

    from the Talmud:
    Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said: "It is written in Zechariah (9:9) 'Behold thy king cometh unto thee...lowly riding upon an assss'; while Daniel (7:13} says: 'Behold there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto the Son of man."
    If Israel were worthy, 'with the clouds of heaven'; if they were not worthy, lowly, and riding upon an ass. Sanhedrin, 98a




    Gen. 22:4 Then, (as example to the years of the ministry of Jesus yet to come), on the third "day," (the third yom, or three durations of time: [Luke 24:46]), Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off, (in the future).
     
  19. Woody

    Woody New Member

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    Your following the same logic as below.

    View attachment 17975
     
  20. junobet

    junobet New Member

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    Well, I come from a different line of thinking than cupid does, but I too am a universalist. And as such I tell you that the point about mercy is that only the guilty are in need of it, the innocent (should they exist) would be justified anyway. So Hitler does not need to be good in any way to get mercy.
    What he's got going for him is that just as you and me Hitler is a beloved child of God, a child that went horribly astray, but that won't stop a father from loving His child.
    Of course you don't need to share my faith in a loving and merciful God, but here you go: I have faith in that.
     
  21. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I 'personally' believe that God had a plan and a completeness of His Creation at the onset. The creation was fractured by sin (heaven & on earth) of his creatures, but He had a plan to restore the entirety at some time.

    Hitler might be considered as a 'child of God' as a result of His creation, but he is by no means a 'Son of God' as those who follow the word of God. However, are those suffering from mental disorders guilty of their doings---our courts say not. And so how God sees Hitler's gruesome life's results may be dealt with at a divine level that we know not.

    But again as I believe, at some point, all Creation will come back together..or for those following science, a collapse of the Universe back to a singularity known as 'God.' (when looking at philosophically)
     
  22. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    The biggest flaw with modern religion is it's very existence. We need to move beyond past dogma so that we can reconnect with real spirituality.
     
  23. Stagnant

    Stagnant Banned

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    Not if God isn't a gigantic (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*).
     
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good answer regarding what God was working out at that time.

    Howard Storm specifically asked about the holocaust and was given this explanation:


     
  25. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But for the moment perhaps each separate religious belief system is a fantastic test for each of us as we progress upward and become more and more spiritual and less and less religious???!!

    I got an amazing response a few days ago regarding how deeply religious Christians take the idea of some sort of rapture and turn and twist the idea around in such a way that the Creator ends up resembling what Satan must be like if he is still in as bad an attitude as he once was???!!

    The first post on page five is something about the rapture seen in a NDE, the reply from Anonymous is post 2 and 3 on this page!


    http://www.christianforums.com/t7673933-5/
    Christian Rapture and fulfillment of Yom Kippur event?!?!
     

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