UNIVERSAL/SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE?

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by joesnagg, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I was inspired to start this thread after two posts with a new member from England. We Americans, whenever this subject is publicly broached, are immediately subjected to well funded propaganda bemoaning the alleged "horrors" of universal/single payer health care systems. Since these forums are international I feel it would be educational to hear from those who ACTUALLY LIVE under such systems. What are your experiences, likes and dislikes, with your country's health care system? No sugar coating, the straight up and up please.
     
    Eleuthera and David Landbrecht like this.
  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    THE COST DIFFERENCE IN HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS - U.S. AND EUROPEAN UNION

    I've found price-level differences amongst countries in a document I am unable to post here (but can be found online here). Moreover, it is data from 2014.

    Still, I have selected national Price Level Indices of health-care education costs for countries that I feel "comparable to the US" economically.

    The source is from the OECD in this document: International Comparisons of Health Prices-and Volumes - New-Findings
    Great Britain - 79
    Italy - 81
    Finland - 91
    Germany - 92
    France - 93
    Denmark - 95
    Belgium - 102
    Canada - 126
    USA - 130
    Sweden - 132
    Australia - 137
    Norway - 181

    So, no, the US does not have the most expensive Healthcare Service on earth. I must add, for all those countries in the EU with a National Healthcare, the cost may be higher or lower than the US, but the
    cost-to-patient in both cases is near zero.

    PS: Canada has an NHS.
    (So, pray tell, why cannot the US employ one as well?)
    PPS: But what is it that differentiates DRASTICALLY the above countries, that is the US from the rest of them? It is the fact that the education of medical-staff is done at a state-operated schools in all NHS-countries with very, very low-fees. So, when graduates begin working in a European-NHS, they do not have one-helluva-debt to repay for their degree!
    PPPS: And how much might that cost be in the US? From $37,556 (public, in-state) to $62,194 (See here!)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
    Eleuthera and joesnagg like this.
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This is an interesting quotation. Because it provoked another.

    That is, why is it that the EU had no misgivings whatsoever about creating National Healthcare Systems throughout. If any country wanted to be a member, they had to adopt such a system. One cannot imagine how much the Eastern Europe countries wanted such a system even though they had the Communist version. Which didn't work!

    Well, there's another version that works well for those who can afford it, and that's a very minor percentage of the US-elderly. Only about 17% of the total population (as I recall having employed it in this forum just recently). It is possible that it's what left of ObamaCare after Trump got done with it!

    All that Donald-Dork did was to weaken US healthcare. Read that article here: What has Trump done for Healthcare?

    For instance, the article claims that this is how Trumpster weakened Obama's healthcare-bill:
    Nice guy, this Trump-character! And, good riddance ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  4. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi. I'm from England.
    My first comment is that the National Health Service is almost universally loved by the peoples of the UK. The service can be poor, but outcomes rarely are, you might not be able to buy your way to the front of the queue in A&E, but you will be seen and treated by people who really know their stuff.
    So, downsides,
    You might wait a year for a free knee operation (You can buy one)
    You didn't pay your doctor, so you don't get to shout at him/her.
    If you are rich you pay for some poor people to get treatment.
    FYI. We have a lot of friends in the NHS, my wife was a senior neuro radiographer for 20+ years.
     
  5. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    What else can I think of.
    Many student nurses and doctors get their fees paid by the NHS.
    Health care costs 18% of governments budget about $2,500 per citizen PA
     
    LafayetteBis and joesnagg like this.
  6. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks for replying. By the way, I worked in nursing for 18 yrs. so I've seen our system up close and personal. I take it true emergencies are seen to immediately. I'm retired, on Medicare, with Social Security and a small pension, and my income qualifies me for prescription assistance through Medicare and a significant reduction in out of pocket costs from my doctor who's affiliated with our local hospital where I get the same reduction for services. It's sad but I'm grateful I'm deemed "low income", couple thousand more a year and I'd literally be paying out the nose. Something HAS to be done, but all our government seems capable of is continually making a bad situation worse. I'll say it again, there's TOO many big money interests evidently getting EXACTLY what they're paying NOT to have, namely a sane universal/single payer system!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
    Eleuthera likes this.
  7. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,311
    Likes Received:
    1,641
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The French system is pretty good. It's easy to get to see a doctor, it's fairly cheap too.
     
  8. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes emergency cases are seen stat.
    I agree the American system is screwed. There's far to much money being made for it to change.
    What's the opinion on Obamacare over there?
     
  9. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's a mixed bag but most of what you're likely to hear is saturated with partisan politics (big surprise, huh?) For many it has been a benefit for lower incomes who get help with the premiums and those with pre-existing conditions, but the middle class not so much. Premiums rise every year like clockwork, the deductibles are outrageous, and many states are down to one company to chose from. My personal take? Government welfare for insurance companies, FAR from what it was touted to be.
     
  10. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I suppose it was a step in the right direction, but so watered down in the end to get it past the money makers that it was bound to fail.
     
    joesnagg likes this.
  11. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We've had the framework for a viable universal/single payer system for DECADES, Medicare and Medicaid, but as ol' Bob Dylan noted, "Money don't talk, it SCREAMS!" ;)
     
  12. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Is it true that if you don't have insurance or cash you continually get bumped to the back of the queue for chronic illness?
     
  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    WHERE'S THE ENEMY?

    Healthcare paid-for by the US government is closer to 7% of the total Discretionary Budget, see here:
    [​IMG]
    Whyzat? Because we have a behemoth of an expenditure (57%) that goes to the DoD!

    Where's WW3? Where's the enemy? They are all scared shatless because of our DoD-expenditure? I seriously doubt that!

    WE, THE SHEEPLE should be upset because of our DoD expenditure! The funds
    could have been spent on a decent national healthcare program and post-secondary education of our children at state-schools!

    But that aint gonna happin ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  14. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2018
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    452
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Better healthcare for more people at less cost versus continued profits to insurance and big pharma. And the winner is.....
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    POINTING THE FINGER OF DEATH

    From here: What's Killing Us? It's Mostly Our Own Bad Habits

    Excerpt:

    Enjoy ... !

     
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    THINKING OUT LOUD ABOUT HEALTH-CARE AND TERTIARY-LEVEL EDUCATION

    QUOTE="David Landbrecht, post: 1072260664, member: 78306"]Better healthcare for more people at less cost versus continued profits to insurance and big pharma. And the winner is.....[/QUOTE]

    ABOUT A PROGRAM OF NATIONAL HEALTHCARE
    Uncle Sam can't have lesser healthcare costs until he takes "The Right Steps". Which go something like this:
    *Establish a National Healthcare System across the nation, with states bearing a part of the cost.
    *Offset this expenditure with a dramatic reduction of DoD costing presently. (We've got better things to do with that money, and nobody is attacking the US!)
    *Ask the states to assume in a minor-part the cost of the healthcare system inside their state. Healthcare is cheapest to furnish in high-density cities. Not all states have such. *Moreover, providing both Health Care and Post-secondary Schooling to the population is going to be a headache in states that are of low-population. (Which simply means that states are aggregated to provide schooling out of just one of its cities. But the cost of bringing the students in to study must be assumed by the states.)

    ABOUT POST-SECONDARY SCHOOLING
    *The existing private-schooling system must be given its part in providing for the young who cannot afford admission to their schools. The funding must be worked out between the state-university in question and the overseer of the Tertiary-level Schooling Program in the US Department of Education (at LaLaLand on the Potomac).
    *Each state could implement an ability for those who wish to contribute funding to the National Education Effort - perhaps by means of Tax Reduction accommodations for those who do.
    *The US has already a very well developed private Post-secondary Schooling system. Some of the young from the lesser populated states will be required to spend full-time at a public post-secondary school that is not necessarily inside their state. Whatever and however, these kids must be accommodated! (Meaning very low cost fees.) It is a fundamental right - like that of driving a car - to obtain a post-secondary education. And the nation must respond to that right. Which is even more important than Defense!

    Just thinkin' out loud ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
    joesnagg likes this.
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    UNCLE SAM CAN DO BETTER!

    Thanks for relating your situation. It's nice to see it put personally on paper. Yes, I quite agree, Money has killed decent Health Care in the US. That's the fault of who. More the "system" than the people involved. A health-related post-secondary degree aint free - and it should be!

    I left the US a long, long time ago. I have since got very used to the National Healthcare Systems in those European countries in which I have worked. Europe, despite the variety of languages, is Just Like the US. With one exception. All the EU-states have the same National Healthcare System. (It's a condition of entry to the EU.)

    And it's one of the best on earth. But, and it depends upon how one measures, there are better systems. See here:
    Countries With the Most Well-Developed Public Health Care Systems
    - excerpt:
    If one clicks through that ranking, they will note that a good many European National Healthcare Systems are noted in the top-10 but certainly not all of them.

    Iow: Both the EU and Uncle Sam can & must do better ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
    joesnagg likes this.
  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    NOT ANY DAY SOON

    The US could do the same, but doesn't. The average cost of a Medical Doctor's degree in the US (from here):
    If we want to bring down HC-costs in the US it is going be One Helluva Undertaking. But, we gotta start somewhere. And that somewhere is a national-health-care-degree program at selected universities in the US. (It would be best to have an ample number in all states. But that just aint-gonna-happin. Unless we believe in miracles.

    So, we should start with three, four or five BigSchools that exist at which tuition is paid-for (by the US Dept. of Health) for various students from various states (based upon population - but not wholly).

    The next hurdle is getting the graduated students into hospitals that should cost far less than those today. That is going to be one-helluva an undertaking because of the doctors who paid exorbitant sums required to obtain a Healthcare diploma! And are still paying-off the debt!

    I would be very keen to know whether Biden has this on his schedule. He helped pass Obama's healthcare-plan that Trump then tried to sink. But the AH couldn't muster the votes to do so totally!

    We must start somewhere or as a nation we'll be discussing this until the cows-come-home and that aint any day soon ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
    joesnagg likes this.
  19. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    That's so staggering its hard to believe! U.S total tax revenue for 2019 was 3,500,000,000,000. Which would make defence spending about 20.5% of this?
     
  20. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Interesting.
    Smoking in Britain has become very anti social, following a very good advertising campaign in the UK along with indoor smoking bans in restaurants.
    A huge number have now switched to vaping which is much safer.
     
  21. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I really can't say for the rest my state, let alone the entire country, but here at our local hospital ones income level can qualify for up to 100% reduction of fees for certain services (and that covers a LOT of them) plus up to 100% physicians fees for "affiliated" doctors who are in a number of disciplines. With doctors in private practice it's insurance, cash, or forget it.
     
  22. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,888
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    UNCLE SAM CAN DO BETTER

    To be exact I quote "defense.gov" - Defense-spending 2012:
    Now, if one wants to find the percentage-spending upon DoD, we need only divide it by total 3.1 Trillion. I kinda-sorta feel that such is meaningless because in that spending a lot of it is to pay deficit-interest - which is meaningful in its own context but not this one
    if we are trying to understand Economic Fairness.

    Let's face it: A considerable amount of Deficit Spending in the US goes to Defense for which there is No Tangible Good. It is all expenditure on manpower, some technology and that's about it. Worse yet, since the mid-19th century (to fight the 19th Century Indian Wars) it has been useless generally in the public-domain.

    A war is absolutely of No Benefit to a country whatsoever- it produces only Debt Financing to build&maintain four military-services! So, think of this: If past Defense Budgets had been spent since the 1950s on low-cost College Enrollments rather than wars in Korea and Southeast Asia, the US would be a far, far better country today. It would have had a higher class level of general Knowledge/intelligence that resulted in a higher value of economic-output. Meaning that of general Income and Wealth.

    And had that economic-beneficence been correctly taxed (and spent) all Yanks would be living better lives -
    with a far more fair gradation of wealth amongst the population.

    To me, that means also a much higher-level of economic activity and thus more individual well-being of our population.

    We are still a population of Have-nots, Have some, Have enough, Have well-enough and Have Far Too Much - and the imbalance amongst those is Terribly Unfair economically.

    Uncle Sam can do better. And he should ... !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  23. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What's more staggering is how many Americans blindly accept it and then wonder why there's no money for other things!
     
  24. Tigger2

    Tigger2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Not as bad as i've read then. About people with diabetes failing to get treatment until too much damage is done. I guess people find cases that support their views.
     
  25. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Like I said, politics. I've no doubt there are true horror stories, but for the most part its people who refuse to SEEK treatment. EDs are required to provide treatment, stabilize you, transfer you to another facility if necessary, and the hospital it's attached to have social workers to help find what programs are available to help. It's far, FAR from what it could be, but it ain't like the wilds of Papua New Guinea either.
     

Share This Page